My goal with Star Citizen is to build a universe that I want to play in day after day, one that fully immerses me in the environment and stories that happen around me.
In Star Citizen’s persistent universe I want events to happen, governments to fall, wars fought and players becoming legends. I want to see a Galactapedia that grows from week to week, reflecting not just the ongoing content Cloud Imperium plans to continually generate, but also the great deeds achieved by players.
To achieve this sense of a living history, there needs to be a universe where time progresses, characters die, and new ones come to the front. Beyond this, I want people to have a sense of accomplishment when they complete a really difficult trading run or kill an especially infamous pirate. I hate the current game trend in single player games where the game auto-saves every 2 seconds and if you die you just start a few steps earlier. This makes you a lazy and sloppy player. I bullied my way through games like Mass Effect or Gears of War, running in guns blazing, knowing if I died I would always just re-spawn a few steps earlier. In Wing Commander or Privateer, you had to complete the mission to move on. There were no mid mission saves. This created a sense of anxiety towards the end of the mission if you were badly damaged and your shields were low, but if you managed to limp home successfully, you felt a sense of accomplishment. Without the risk of losing something you’ve worked hard towards, the sense of achievement is cheap.
The last single player game I played that give me an extreme sense of accomplishment in beating it was Demon’s Souls. How they handled death and re-incarnation of your ghost / body was consistent with their world and fiction and because I couldn’t save mid-level, clearing a level, especially after a difficult Boss fight was immensely satisfying. It was also one of the most frustrating games I’ve played! I think Demon’s Souls was too much on the “punishing” end of the difficulty spectrum, but it really did remind me of the value of having something to lose when playing. You can’t have light with dark and you can’t have reward without risk.
In Squadron 42, this is pretty easy to achieve. You need to complete the mission to move forward and you can’t save while in space. You die you just go back to the previous save point, normally before you launched on the mission.
The tricky part is really how failure is handled in the persistent universe of Star Citizen, as you can’t just set back the game to an earlier point.
The simple solution is that when your ship is destroyed, you manage to eject and drift in space, where you are picked up and returned to the last planet / landing location to claim your new ship sans any cargo and upgrades you had (unless you had bought additional insurance) and head out into space again.
This is the mechanic EVE Online uses, with the extra wrinkle that if another player blows up your escape pod, a stored clone of your character is activated, re-spawning your character and effectively making him/her immortal. In EVE, death is allowed for in the fiction and is balanced out by the cloning mechanism, which allows for loss of property but not your character’s skills (as unlike Star Citizen, your character in EVE has RPG skills that you learn)
The death mechanic in EVE is clever and well woven into their fiction.
But I’m not interested in making EVE 2.0 with cockpits.
One of my goals with Star Citizen is to make it feel very visceral and real. I want to feel the effects of physical damage on my character, loss of limb or other mishaps that can happen in the danger of space. If my character has been through several wars, I want to see the scars on him/her – perhaps a cybernetic arm because one was lost in firefight or the wrong side of a dogfight. I want to be able to walk up to another player in a bar and SEE that he or she is a grizzled veteran with the battle scars to prove it. This is the kind of detail, texture, and immersion that I want to achieve with Star Citizen.
I also feel that if everyone can be cloned easily, it fundamentally changes the structure of the universe. You now have a universe of immortal gods that can’t be killed. Death is just a financial and time inconvenience that has no further consequences. The life and death cycle of humanity is what has brought us our history, our need to “make a mark” in our time, to push forward. If I want a living, breathing universe that has a lot of the dynamics of a real world and is inspired by the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, immortality for all is problematic.
The flip side is that while perma-death is realistic, it is not a lot of fun if the first time you’re on the wrong side of a dogfight you lose everything and have to start again.
I want Star Citizen to be immersive AND fun.
The death mechanics that I have in mind keep a feeling of mortality and history without making it frustrating or killing (pun intended) the fun.
The life and death of a Spaceman.
The Character creation screen will be done “in-fiction”. You’ll start the game in 1st person view looking at two bathroom doors – one with a male sign and one with a female sign. Which door you walk through will determine what sex you are when you walk into the washroom. Walking up to the mirror, you’ll see your reflection. Wiping the condensation off of the mirror with your hand (or some similar mechanic) will change / reveal your facial appearance. When you’re happy with how you look, you will exit and return to the UEE recruitment office and officer. You’ll fill in your name on the MobiGlas form and also specify your beneficiary in case of death: this could be a family member, son, daughter, uncle, aunt or someone entirely new (although not another player character).
The UEE Navy has an opt-out option right up until you move onto advanced training (where you would start Squadron 42). So if you just want to jump into Star Citizen, you can opt out right away. If you want some basic pilot training, you could avail yourself of basic and then buy your way out. In this case, the player would just owe a small debt to the UEE that he / she has to pay within a year of game time or become a “debtor” (debtors are denied landing rights on UEE controlled planets and don’t receive any UEE protection until they’ve paid their debt).
A player enters the persistent universe of Star Citizen either after completing the Squadron 42 campaign (which doesn’t need to be successful), or by opting out before advanced training and going straight into the private sector.
Most players should have some kind of basic insurance, whether it’s lifetime hull insurance for everyone that has backed so far, or a limited duration insurance that will come with later ship packages. A player will even be able to take out a small loan to help finance his/her exploits (with the same penalties for nonpayment described above)
You will be able to run “training simulations” in the simulator module in your hangar (think of this like the arcade game in the Pilots’ Ready Room in the original Wing Commander) to practice your combat skills with no penalty (but of course there is also no financial reward here either).
When you venture out into space proper, you do put your character at risk, but it will be a long term one, not an immediate one.
I see each character you play having the ability to “die” multiple times before the character is finally put to rest. Think of this like “lives” in an old school arcade game. Science in the future is far more advanced than today. Medicine has the ability to bring people back from what would be considered dead in today’s world.
If you lose a dogfight and your ship is going to blow, you have a few seconds to eject. If you manage to eject safely and someone doesn’t blast your ejected avatar, you won’t have even used a “life”. You’ll end back up at the last planet you docked on, with a new ship courtesy of SystemWide Insurance. You’ll have lost your cargo and any upgrades (unless you managed to insure those and you were destroyed in a system with a risk level at or below your insurance rating)
If you don’t manage to eject in time, or someone blasts your ejected character (which carries a harsh penalty if you do this in “civilized” space), your badly charred and almost dead avatar is recovered and you wake up in a med bay.
This is also true if you are killed in a boarding action and your teammates can’t or don’t recover you. If this happens it is assumed that your dead body was evacuated into space and then recovered.
Every “death” creates wear and tear on your body. Depending on where you were hit and how you died, your character may require a new body part, which can either be cybernetic or organic. Eventually after too many deaths, your character’s body will just give out, and instead of waking up in a med bay, you’ll be attending the funeral of your fallen character from the eyes of the beneficiary you specified when originally creating your character. If your old character has done something noteworthy (akin to an in-game achievement), his headstone might read “Here lies Chris, discover of the Orion 2 jump point, slayer of the Dread Pirate Roberts, and a Citizen of the First Order.”
There will also be opportunities to regain some lives or do a reset. Some of this could be through in-game missions or it could just involve paying a lot of money to a specialist on a remote med planet that is doing stem cell research.
Because of how Star Citizen works, the death of your character is not as catastrophic as it would be in a traditional RPG. If you want to think about it in terms of RPG conventions, the character that you are leveling up and customizing is really your spaceship. Your avatar is really just a visual representation of your in-game character, and because Star Citizen is skill based, the loss of your character is more a cosmetic and textural outcome, especially as almost all of the assets you’ve worked hard to accumulate pass on to the beneficiary that you specified when creating your original character.
Reputation and faction alliances pass on to your new character, but slightly diminished. If your original character was a pirate, then the new one will also be aligned with pirates, but not as much and will still be on the UEE watch list. No slate will be wiped clean, but if you want to change your allegiances, this would be the start. This matches life, where the son of a criminal has to deal with the bias of people thinking he is going to be like his father, or a son of a cop is assumed to be on the side of law and order.
What I like about this system is that it creates a sense of mortality and history. No one’s character will die right away. It will take some time to get to that point, but players will feel a sense of risk and so will think twice before needlessly risking their lives, as they don’t want to burn through their “lives”. You’ll also be able to see visually how battle scarred someone is – perhaps having an eye patch or a cybernetic arm could be a badge of pride that you’ve been to war and survived.
When a character finally does shuffle off the mortal coil, the player hasn’t lost what he has really put in the game time to build up – his ship(s), equipment and other assets. These pass to the next of kin / beneficiary. And there is a successor to carry on the family legacy or to avenge the deceased character. (“My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!”) This will hopefully create a competition between players to see how much they can achieve in the life span of their current characters. The ones that achieve greatness via killing a Star Citizen unique NPC or taking part in a unique event, like discovering a new jump point or system, are recorded in the Galactapedia and become part of the universe lore and history.
This doesn’t just apply to a player character. For me, it’s vital that there are non-player characters (NPCs) are both unique and can be killed. In a single player game, no one minds that many other players have completed the same quest and killed the very same boss monster because the world only revolves around you. But if you take the same quest in a MMO, which is meant to be a shared persistent universe, knowing that the next party will kill the very same boss in the same spot breaks the “suspension of disbelief”. Most MMOs just accept this as the price you pay with having many thousands of players – all expecting to be a hero.
Not Star Citizen.
Major NPCs will be unique. And if they are in a place where they can be killed, they will be killed only once. Think of it as a very hard to win achievement that one player or group of players in the game will ever achieve. If you manage to kill the “Dread Pirate Roberts”, that will be part of your legend, similar to discovering a new jump point or star system. Upon the death of a “boss” NPC, we won’t re-spawn him or her, but there will be someone that steps in to fill the void, so the same area of space may now be terrorized by “The Black Skull”. Major NPC “bosses” will be a unique scalp for a player good enough to beat them. But almost all bosses will have someone waiting in the wings.
While people may feel my proposed death mechanic may hamper their “role playing” of a character they have created an elaborate personal backstory for, I would counter that it will actually enhance it. There is no reason not to have the same backstory, but now it’s the story of your present character and his / her descendants. How many famous people are made and driven by the accomplishments of their parents?
Trust Me!
I realize this game is not going to fulfill everyone’s personal vision of what they think it will be. That would be impossible. There will be some things in Star Citizen’s game design that WILL take people out of their comfort zone. That’s a good thing.
You backed me to make the game in my head and that’s what I’m going to do.
I do listen and when I think something makes sense, I fold it into my thinking as long as it is compatible with the vision I am trying to achieve. But this won’t happen in all cases, so please keep an open mind and wait until you have a chance to play Star Citizen. And even then you should know that we will balance and tweak – that’s the whole point of having such a great community so early – for your feedback and ideas – and if something truly is broken for a large part of the player population we will fix it. We are an online game and frequent updates and tweaks are a core part of the Star Citizen vision.
Question and Answer
Not ejecting before your ship blows up, taking a head shot during boarding, having your ejected pilot or escape pod targeted and destroyed while floating in space.
The exact number of “lives” will be balanced as development of the game progresses. The intention is to allow multiple “deaths” before you’re properly dead. So expect to wake up in the med bay at least half a dozen times if not more. And getting to this point won’t be common unless you are participating in a lot of boarding actions or flying in areas where there is no law and order. Please note that it will not ultimately be a single, static counter: taking different risks and dying in different ways will impact your overall survivability at different rates. Remember, the key to Star Citizen is visceral realism: so while the system works this way under the hood, there’s not going to be a “life counter” at the bottom of your screen!
When you disconnect (or otherwise quit in flight) the server attempts to take you to “auto pilot”. If you’re in a space instance (i.e. not already in warp/ auto pilot) and close enough to a hostile the server will attempt to gain enough separation to enter auto pilot. If it’s successful the server will then place your ship back on the planet you last landed on. If not, and you haven’t managed to reconnect to your AI controlled ship before the hostile destroys your ship it is assumed you ejected successfully and will be returned to the last planet you landed on. If you have insurance will have a new hull waiting for you. We will monitor player’s disconnects and if we feel like you are “gaming” the system we may enact a “death” penalty on you and decrease your internal life count.
Players who target helpless ejected pilots in civilized space that don’t have an official UEE death bounty on their heads are the scum of the universe and will be treated as such by the authorities and marked for death by other players. Pilots who shoot down ejection pods will have trouble navigating civilized space because the police will be on their tails… and they’ll have trouble in the lawless regions, too, because there will be heavy government bounties on their heads (in addition to any player bounties that might be added.)
When you eject in an active battle instance you can float and watch the action. You can activate your rescue beacon at any time, and when there are no hostiles within a certain distance the game will fade out, then fade up with “… a little time later” and have an in-engine cinematic of your pilot / pod being tractored in to a rescue and recovery vehicle. The game will then cut to the last planet you “saved” on, and you looking at your new replacement ship (assuming you have insurance).
A head shot is more likely to be fatal than any other injury! Boarding a ship is an extremely risky proposition… you can gain a valuable prize by capturing another player’s property but you’re putting yourself at the most risk possible. It’s possible you’ll just lose an eye or a jaw… but there’s also a very small chance you’ll take a laser to the brain and be dead forever. Taking a head shot while defending a ship is usually less fatal: defending ships will allow their casualties more immediate access to medical facilities.
We believe this system will actually dis-incentivize griefers: If you’re a player who wants to camp out in a safe area to kill new players, you’ll quickly have a bounty on your head, and legal PvP will be authorized on you. If you target ejected pilots, lethal force on your ejected pilot can be authorized too. Attempting to grief new players will probably hasten your character’s death a lot quicker than the new players you’re trying to terrorize. We feel that by giving harsh penalties to people that target ejected pilots, allowing most injuries to be survivable, letting players upgrade for survivability to their specifications will help reduce the incentive to grief. But we’re also aware that everything will need to be balanced once the game goes live. So that’s our most important promise: we will continue to balance this system so that it works rather than allowing it to become a tool for players who want to make the game difficult for others.
Ship upgrades will include a variety of systems designed to increase the survivability of vehicle loss, including improved ejection systems, improved space suits and personal shielding, better power plant cores (to give you more time to escape) and various automated systems (so that you can set your fighter to eject you after a certain amount of damage has been suffered.)There will also be an upgrade system surrounding your “battle damage”; if your character loses an eye or an arm and you would like a natural replacement rather than a cybernetic-looking implant, you will be able to pursue these in certain markets. Additionally there may be certain medical procedures or limb / organ replacements that can increase your lifespan (effectively add a few lives back)
There is no way to opt-out of death in the persistent world, but remember that Star Citizen will include options for running your own server. We’ll allow you the option to set the game to infinite lives in this case.
Yes, all spacecraft in Star Citizen are being designed to allow crew members to eject or otherwise abandon ship.
Yes. If you have room and you recover an ejected friend they can become crew on your ship. In addition if you rescue other players and survive the battle you will get a rescue payment from the rescued pilot’s ship insurance company once you land on the next planet. Space rescue and recovery is standard on all ship insurance policies.
If your escape pod is captured by another player or NPC, your game will continue… but there will be penalties depending on your situation. If you are a criminal and are delivered to a prison planet, for instance, you will need to pay off the authorities to escape. If you are sold into slavery, you will need to buy your freedom.
No. We’re building a combat game and are going to do everything possible to encourage players to dogfight and otherwise battle each other. In most dogfights, even if your ship is destroyed, you won’t lose a life as it’s very likely you will eject in time. Waking up in a med bay with a new limb should be a rare occurrence unless you really like to live in the most dangerous and unregulated parts of the galaxy. The fear of permanent death will cause some anxiety which will add to the overall experience… but it will be more than countered by the potential rewards. In a world where everyone is vulnerable, no one has an advantage.
We’re letting you know these plans early on so that you can incorporate them into your characters. Note that your next-of-kin need not be family members, for anyone hoping to role play a “lone wolf” character.
No, everything you earned from Squadron 42 the first time will pass on: Citizenship, credits earned, starter ship and the like. If your beneficiary was a citizen his/her status will pass on down to you as well with a probation period that you have to perform some actions / missions / job to keep the Citizenship in good standing. You will have the option of playing a second campaign if you so desire, but it will not be required.
HUGE news…
going to reed now.
translation : “I wanted to yell ‘FIRST !’ so I posted a comment before reading anything”.
Lulz Pretty much what I got from it too. Lot’s of great info! Thanks RSI!
Yep. people want to be first. silly but true. Also, I trust Chris Roberts.
Hey, I wouldn’t mind having my comment actually read either.
So it means I have to reply to your comment, just to be seen.
Regardless, I find this death system VERY interesting, and I like how it’s gonna work.
Just like my father, uncles, grandfather and great-grandfather, I trust Chris Roberts.
+1
Unnecessary to add any comment on this update before even reading.
pretty damn right
I imagine it will be the same reason some will do anything silly in the game so they can say “DEAD FIRST!!”.
I have posted this a while ago..
http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/forum/showthread.php?13178-ideas-In-game-handling-of-player-death&p=38335#post38335
Awesome stuff. Chris is truly magnificent!
$$$ spent on pledging – money best spent!
So much this.
LIKE.
Sounds great… can’t wait, although I do remember some 30 odd years ago pressing the eject button in Elite for the C64 and being returned to the space station with a new ship waiting, and I didn’t have to pay any insurance, anyways I hope this game has awesome gameplay.
This is a Death Reward, not a Death Penalty. If it’s implemented how he describes here it will do entirely to much to encourage, not deter, griefing within the game.
http://7bitworld.org/2013/02/06/imo-3-death-of-a-spaceman-a-greifers-dream-come-true/
There is more to it. Let’s say you have griefer A, and “assistant” B. A goes in, guns blazing, and blow up as many escape pods as possible, before running away. A and B dogfights… but A has to go walk the dog, so for some strange reason, B wins.
Ka-ching!
That was a rather nice bounty. B kickbacks some of it to A so A can bankroll new insurances, missiles etc. Rinse and repeat – griefing & money generation in one go!
It might help if going out of ones way to blow up pods can result in such things as no longer having the option of getting insurance.
Nothing CR stated says the new player character starts with a neutral reputation as is implied in the blog. That would be utterly unrealistic. For instance, when there is a new head of an organized crime family that family doesn’t drop off the authorities radar. There should be the possibility to (slowly) rehabilitate one’s reputation, even within the lifespan of a single character, but family (or one’s past) history should follow someone just as it does in real life.
“…insurance companies won’t cover plaers with high wanted levels…”
There you go, no insurance for griefers.
Glory hallelujah! Also, I highly doubt that “A” and “B” would have time to dogfight in this situation. You’d likely have players and NPCs swarming you after you blow the second escape pod. After a few attempts, any money you’d be getting would not be worth it.
This is exactly what I think about the falws of MMOs:
“This doesn’t just apply to a player character. For me, it’s vital that there are non-player characters (NPCs) are both unique and can be killed. In a single player game, no one minds that many other players have completed the same quest and killed the very same boss monster because the world only revolves around you. But if you take the same quest in a MMO, which is meant to be a shared persistent universe, knowing that the next party will kill the very same boss in the same spot breaks the “suspension of disbelief”. Most MMOs just accept this as the price you pay with having many thousands of players – all expecting to be a hero.
Not Star Citizen.”
About the Topic in general:
There are a lot of people who don’t know Chris Roberts Games as well as other do, or the way he builds games.
When reading this “Death of a Spaceman” I didn’t except less.
If Chris Roberts would have a “permadeath” like most MMO_palyers would think of, Iwould have been disappointed.
What he does is always about having an experience and a larger story behind.
Something tht drags you inti the game.
I haven’t had doubts before and I only red what I could expect from Chris Roberts.
I love it Chris, stick with your vision for the game!
Good stuff. Wa have been waiting for this!
I was thinking after I read this, what happens if we are the industrialists that rarely put ourselves in danger. Can we have an option that lets us have our characters die from old age is something does not kill us first?
That would make things so much more interesting
Third paragraph:
“To achieve this sense of a living history, there needs to be a universe where time progresses, characters die”
So it seems from that there will be an aging aspect, possibly. I’d definitely like to see it in the game
* Should have added though, if you are a wealthy industrialist, you’d more than likely be able to buy life extending technology and outlive near everyone
That needs to be a thing XD
As the history in the persistent universe is made in realtime it is more probable that you die of old age in real life than your character of what they call ‘old age’ in the year 3000+.
one huge astroid sized flaw with this issue. while granted charecters may *age* as the game is a 1:1 ratio in time with us then if their average life span as posted is 100-140 years your charecter will outlive you reguardless
Wow. thought process. Glad it’s lunchtime, I need to read this.
the bathroom is involved in character creation?
Now that’s immersion ^^
You and me both man. Going to the toilet has never been so exciting.
^ you just made my day
LMAO, That would make one hell of a space sim.
I wounder if we will be able to flush the toilet like in “Duke Nukem”
A reason to eject! Now that’s good – could never really motivate it in a single-player game. Always ended up going down with my ship. Ejection as a means to mitigate a harsher death penalty in multiplayer makes it something you’d actually consider doing.
brb, remapping my entire numpad to the eject button.
Or something like this: http://www.bigredbutton.com.au/
Time to read! Looking good so far.
Who have to plan this in for a read
Color me impressed. What Chris outlines here walks a very interesting line balancing the needs of story, player attachment, sense of player accomplishment, consequences, and risk. I was skeptical, but it sounds like a system I may end up liking a lot.
I think the biggest key, here, is that ejection without death is possible, and medical advances have ensured that even when I face vicious, bloodthirsty enemies, it’ll take more than one “death” before I need to go through character creation again.
Of course, this notion of beneficiaries means that account-based communication schemes (“account.name”-style name formats?) are even more critical.
Account names wouldn’t be great for immersion. I could see family names being used, or if your beneficiary is a non-relative, have an e-mail sent to all of your deceased characters friends (on the friend list) to let them know they’ve passed away and that any remaining business can be handled by their beneficiary, [insert name here].
not a bad idea. that sounds great
The only thing that worries me are character names. So I wouldn’t end up with Sky256 simply because I got sick of renaming my character after 2 years of gameplay.
Other then that – the whole plan looks very nice, well-thought idea. Hope it won’t get screwed by implementation. Though so far it seems to be most fun and interestin proposition of permadeath I’ve seen in a history of computer gaming.
you name your beneficiary at the start of the game
And as older characters die those names will be opened up. For example you name yourself Crows Wind, he dies so your next of kin is Deaths Wind who was original not available due to some one else having that name.
This could also lead to some interesting networking as you could in theory assume your enemy’s name….
Same here… I was skeptical, but upon reading, the system sounds delightfully innovative and fun. The thing I can’t stand about modern gaves is their lack of innovation, so Roberts vision is refreshing and laudable!!
Great news and great death system!
Every part about what Chris said only verified my confidence that this will be the best game in the ‘verse.
+1
I dislike you Johnny…
This sounds like a great system with compromise all around. I really like it. Good show on tackling a tough problem, Chris.
How will the “The ship is your character” work when there are ships that cannot be insured (Captured Alien ships, and other types of “limited edition” ships have been mentioned). Doesn’t that effectively introduce another type of “permadeath” for those that manage to capture one of these trophy ships?
That’s why it’s a trophy ship.
It looks good in your hangar most of the time, it’s not your daily driver.
It will basically render all alien ships useless to most players except the lucky few who bought Vanduul scythes with LTI during the pledge drive.
Also – the insurance FAQ mentions other “one off ships” – what exactly are those?
Best guess: prototypes and pimp-my-ride ships
Most likely among others, the ships borrowed from a third party when you need money after losing an uninsured ship.
If you managed to catch an alien ship once, you can do it again, no?
One off ships would presumably be evens ships. Like if the npc boss “Dread Pirate Roberts (no relation)” was flying a modified pirate constellation with some kind of mysterious alien artefact armour, and you boarded and killed him, that ship would be a one-of. As there was only one dread roberts, there can only be one dread roberts modified pirate constellation. You can either keep it as a trophy to show off, or use it in combat to gain an edge but risk losing it completely as the insurance would only deliver a regular old constellation to you if lost.
HEY!!!
*narrows eyes*
Aren’t you that Pete Roberts guy?
-Irish
spot on
this is going to be amazing
Am I the only one who think the frequent loss of ships should up the insurance premium and therefore also create a sense of risk, more so than this mortality system?
I am with you, and personally more afraid of losing my ship (upgrades+cargo even more so) than losing my life. Especially if there are like 6 lifes.
Also I think I’ll have more use for the RSI insurance(s) on my ship(s) than any real life insurance LOL
There is new design or what? Looking good. I like transparence…everything is better if it is transparent:)
Ok it is long update. I better start reading
OK I do not like those diagonal stripes…too distracting…get rid of them for more transparency:D
What I like
-immersion during character creation
-mortal NPCs
-more danger for the bording party, less for defending crew
-infinite life on private server
What I do not like
-upgrades to not lose lives so quickly…I do not see the point to waste money to get attached to my character more and than lose more
-mortality of my spaceman
-destructible eject pod
I am still worried about griefers and PvP minority
If there was not PvP (and griefers) it would be really challenging game but I am quite worried that it will be rather frustrating… looking forward to beta to try how it will work.
I think it was 46% wanted to play this game for either PvP alone or both PvP and PvE that is not much of a ‘minority’. Also Chris has always wanted PvP in the game. Also your post seems to imply most or all PvP are griefers, this isn’t true at all. The way Chris is designing the game seems to cater to both crowd. As a PvP player I am glad about this because I want everyone to have fun, including you. But if you decide to visit the dodgy part of town you know the risks, that is my neighbourhood.
You added the numbers for pvp or both which is unfair considering if you do the same for pve or both you get 79%. Which really shows a bigger number for pve and whichever way you look at it pvp is a minority compared to pve.
Regardless, the number of PvP players out there is not an insignificant number.
If we are trying to be technical here you can’t have 79% and 46% it doesn’t work like that. You can say that 46% of people will be PvP’ing and 54% of people have no interest in it. Using the word “minority” in this case makes it seem extremely misleading being there is realistically only a 4% gap between the “never”‘s and the “will do”‘s and with only roughly 8% of player’s reporting that number can change dramatically when you get the other 90% involved.
All that being said i’m not convinced OP wants to play an MMO or multi-player game seeing as how they seem to think any PvP is bad and griefers shouldn’t exist. I’ve never played an MMO that didn’t have PvP or griefers and im pretty sure there isn’t one that exists. WoW, Rift, EVE, DCU, and SWTOR all have both of those, and have had and will always have them.
Since it seems like he basically just doesn’t like any form of character death, it seems like the best option for OP is to stay on the private servers he mentioned liking. That will be the only way he’s going to play the PU(or similar) without PvP and death.
Hi Rabaen. Thanks for your reply. The guy said he didnt want PvP, so I compared those that want some PvP to No PvP. The 79% you quote is for a different question -> Should there be Any PvE. I know it sounds like a subtle difference but I work in a field that has a lot to do with how you portray statistical evidence and there are many ways to misrepresent the numbers. On a side note this survey result wont truely reflect the population that actually will be playing star citizen in 2 years due to selection bias (early sign ups might not be truly representative, PvE only people may be more interested in answering), lack of statistical power (unlikely the sample size will represent the huge number of future players), probably poor statistical design of study (questionaire).
Yeah the selection bias might actually be currently in favour of pvp, it could go either way.
Just because you work somewhere that does statistical analysis doesn’t mean you should try to misconvey numbers here.
Anyone reading this that hasn’t seen the survey would think 46% of players will be pvp which could be a very bad view of the game in their view.
Also you combined two numbers to make a point for one side of the argument, making 46% sound like a big group compared to the other 54% which really isn’t true considering you subsumed 26% which sit on the fence. If you were being fair you would either have pointed this out or just used the pvp/pve only numbers.
Thats all I was pointing out, that adding two numbers together and that says “this” should really have a note that says “this” actually includes “this and this”.
Rabaen, he added the two “yes PvP” numbers because he was specifically making a response to somebody who was claiming that people didn’t want to PvP. That’s not misrepresenting the numbers; using ONLY the “PvP only” portion of the replies and ignoring that there was a sizeable chunk of people who want to do both is misrepresenting the results of the survey.
If Squishinator had posed his response to imply that *only* the remaining 54% of players want PvE at all, then yes, he would have been spinning the statistics to present a biased implication. He didn’t, though — in fact, he went out of his way to point out that his 46% included people who want both even though neither the point he was making nor the one he replied to had anything to do with PvE.
Well, I can read with these diagonal stripes way better than with the previous background.
That’s pretty imrpessive thinking
Really like this idea and definitely seems fair.
From the looks of it, if you’re an extremely rich, wealthy person, you can pretty much buy immortality though through paying for new, better body parts and lives?
Again, this seems fair as its similar to the real world, unfair for people at the bottom of the pile and society.
Progression is defined by the money you earn – and by your skill. The more money you have earned the more risks you can take and the better the arrangements you can make in case of failure. Think of money as experience, just with the difference that you ‘experience’ can buy you things and that you can loose experience. Every MMO is designed to make sure, that players gain experience. Star Citizen will be designed to make sure, that players will make money. Some players will be better at it than others, but in the end every player will progress.
Of course you could just use your skill and rock the universe in your Aurora if you are really good at what you you do.
Addendum: At when you loose a lot of money and can’t afford the necessary insurances and precautions anymore, you better stay away from high risk space and spent some time in safer space to make money. Or you trust your skills.
This might also create an interesting class struggle, with the disenfranchised lower classes rebelling against the affluent “Immortal” players. When do the affluent immortals become dictators, and when to the rebels become pirates?
This is great news! not only you get to have a backstory to your character you create quite an epic tale from this system. I’m seeing lots of multi-generational story, revenge plot, and betrayal etc.
This post is my salvation on boring long work hours!
I just want to chime in and say I really like the idea. I don’t see a big problem with it yet, and am looking forward to see how it will be implemented.
I give this death mechanism a standing ovation, I have never experienced anything like this and its exactly what I expected.
CR seems to have answered all the concerns about griefing with Permadeath. The only issue I have with anything mentioned here is the “sold into slavery” bit near the end.
More info on that would be good, like how long would you be in someone’s cargo hold before being sold, how long in slavery etc? A cutscene like escape pod beacon or longer? It sounds interesting to go through that maybe once or twice but if it turned out every pirate was selling captured players into slavery it could get really tedious really fast.
Maybe slavery like a “contract”… if you cant pay yourself free you have to work missions for the person that captured you (or kill him)… of course there should be some limits for the payment…
The only thing I don’t like about that is that you lose control for too long. It is no longer a game where you choose to fly around doing A or B but now you HAVE to do X and Y because someone else sold you into slavery.
To me that would just be another form of griefing.
As well as that you could end up spending a lot of time doing that if you were unfortunate enough to meet a lot of pirates who sell every person as slaves.
I think this is question #1 remaining about the death penalty in the game. I’d suggest either the fee for freedom is the same as the fee you’d pay for reconstruction OR there be (as someone suggests below) a bounty for slaving very close to the bounty for shooting an escape pod.
Lets hope the bounty is enough to deter that type of play. I guess the beta will highlight some of this.
Ways to grief someone by preventing him to play the game:
a) Rescuing a pilot and flying around with him for hours.
b) Capturing a pilot and flying around with him for hours.
c) Shooting an enemy ship and flying around the escaped pilot for hours to prevent the ambulance from coming and picking him up… as there are still enemies around.
Talking to the pilot and offering payment may not help if he wants to deny you playing.
For all of these there should be a quick way to get out of this situation.
Maybe the player who tractored you in has to choose how he treats you (can he changes his mind later?) and then you have options:
a) As you are on a friendly ship you could just return to your last station and you are replaced by an NPC. (This would be somewhat consistent with the mechanic where you can take the place of an NPC on a friends ship. It could be misused to travel very fast by abandoning your insured ship.)
b) Right away pay the ‘fee’ to escape prison planet/slavery and wake up on your last station. You are replaced by a NPC worth the same amount when sold to a prison planet. But what if you then take your new ship, race to the prison planet and intercept the guy who captured you? Or what if he decides to dump you into space and shoot you later on?
c) The ambulance could call for police if they can not safely rescue the pilot who activated the rescue beacon.
For my part, if I ever win a dogfight (or boarding) and have the opportunity to ‘capture’ the pilot/player, I’m not going to grief them. I’ll send them back in the least burdensome way possible (whatever that may be) at the time.
Of course, this would also depend on whether that person has ‘grief’ed myself, friends, or others. This means those known for shooting escape pods, ‘stalking’ (can’t think of a better name for hovering around someone to prevent the escape pod from returning to a planet/base), and/or slavery of PCs (don’t care much about NPCs). Anyone in that situation can expect the worst possible treatment from me. I’m pretty sure I won’t be alone.
Needless to say, I plan on rescuing any friendlies as often as possible. Plus, it sounds like this MAY be profitable in its own way to rescue other pilots in trouble. I guess we’ll have to see how much reward we get for rescuing.
This is exactly what I pictured. I don’t like having to wait for someone to decide what to do with me with no time constraint. Easy solution is to have a time constraint. Slaves / prisoners / rescues must be returned in under 5-10 mins or so or they get a “rescue me now” button that let’s them auto-rescue. Any reward / bounty / payment is lost (unless it’s a dead or alive bounty). Maybe increase the time limit by the size of their bounty.
If you are get captured it would be quite nice if your comrades were able to shoot down your captur and rescue you from whatever fate awaits you.
With such game mechanics it is going to be difficult to balance between downtime and such features.
Um…. if you’re the rescued pilot and someone doesn’t drop you off at the next planet? Pull out your pistol and tell em to land it or they’ll be picking teeth out of their flight console. Problem solved
It would be good if you could kill yourself if you are sold into slavery.
That way you can choose to pay for your freedom or spend a life.
But that would imply that your “owner” has rebuild you, why would he release you? Or your body was dumbed and someone found it, which would make your body quite ugly.
The way I would like to see it when you are sent to prison or into slavery, then you take over your next of kin. If you can free your original character from prison/slavery, then you regain that character back. The person who sold you into slavery would get a bounty and title of a slaver and be discriminated and hunted. I know this might not sound fun to others but i would like something like this.
If I was going around and someone captured me and sold me into slavery, i would use my next of kin to try to free my guy. I think that would give it a level of immersion that no other game has and some unique situations were you could team up with others who have had their characters sold into slavery to make a raid on a slavers stronghold.
I think this is a great system. I’m a little bit anxious about dying but at the same time it is exciting and will have me working hard to hone my skills. I think it will also make joining a squadron much more appealing. There is always strenght in numbers.
Kudos to Chris for sticking w/ what he believes in. I had faith before pledging and still have faith now. Keep up the good work CIG!
One question: If the new character plays through Squadron 42 again, do they get to keep any mission rewards/etc or would it just be more of a fun thing to do?
This game is shaping up to be amazing with respect to the decisions CR has decided to implement with respect to death/fighting/risk and consequences. I am glad to have a front row seat to the future of PC gaming and the space sim genre.
MB
Looks good and a nice balance between death and surviving.
I must say I had doubts about this death mechanic, I must say I was worried.
Now I’m totally convinced. Great explanation, epic wall of text.
After reading this, Chris Roberts really honestly and truely gets it. I’m more stoked than ever.
Seems like a solid gameplay feature if you ask me. I was a bit worried when the whole “next-of-kin” thing was announced, but I’m liking it now that it’s been explained. Y’all keep up the good work!
It really amazes me how much thought already went into this whole universe. I mean, this is why i backed initially but Chris’ plans seem to be even more concrete then i imagined. The character creation, the overall start of the game.. It’ll need a heck of work and balancing but im sure it can actually be realized! Really like the idea how to handle deaths, too! I have never seen anything quite like it before.
Love it – love it all!!!
I would not expect anything less from Chis. Never played a MMO or online game, but I know it can be very unfair to new players.
” In a world where everyone is vulnerable, no one has an advantage.”
This say it all….
Way to go Chris!!!!!!!!!!
Love it that Chris is doing something very very different. EA and the like would never be so bold and original to do this.
But naturally there will be many copy cats if it works, which it goes without saying… it will!!!!
It makes a lot of sense, feels real. He is doing things I have been dreaming about since I was a kid, only no one has had the savy or Balls to do.
IMMERSION
100% With you on this.
This game has been my dream since I was in diapers watching A New Hope on VHS.
Thanks for the clarification CR.
I trust you.
I honestly feel this is the best way to handle death in the game. I would rather have one of my avatars do memorable heroic things than just pure zerging and wipefests.
Great! Couldn’t think of a better way to solve it
Like the concept behind it (a real sense of achievement), love the way it’s planned to be implemented!
“Who are you!?”
“My name is Thrain, son of Thrall – the pirate slayer, whose father was Grim – the one who discovered Blue nebula jumpoint, whose father was…”
And FINALLY an MMO where I won’t be killing the same poor schmock, whose head was put on a spike in front of the gate a million times already.
I believe in Chris R.!
I find this concept of death pretty pointless and punishing only one segment of the player population, namely RPers. I don’t think it’s possible to dis-incentivize griefers, but as long as a system is in place to track them and possibly ban them I don’t care too much.
As a role player I feel this system does only one thing, it gives an artificial feeling of mortality that in the end doesn’t matter since all stuff and even some, or most of, your reputation carries over to the next of kin/beneficiary. I really believe that makes this pointless. It just an exercise in making the whole thing work for the fiction of the world, plot driven as opposed to character driven. I have no interest in having a legacy for my characters. It’s completely antithetical to my role-playing style.
However I will say that the options to pay lots of money to restore “lives” at least makes this easier to swallow, but not by much. I WILL trust Chris! I just won’t be happy with this particular game mechanic, but I pledged because the ideas he had put forth are really awesome and one part of a much larger game will not make abandon this project.
I would ask that you, CIG, the DEVS, Mr. Roberts, at least consider making it possible to name the “beneficiary” the same as the original, that way at least RPers have a bit of an out. While you might not like the idea of immortality, I do like having one established character per “roll.” So if I can at least name the character the same I can choose to shrug off the eventual death by way of clone or whatever. You could even have it be a Jr, Sr, first, second, type of thing, just allow me to leave off that suffix.
I will live with this mechanic, pun intended, but I just won’t be thrilled about it.
Thank you Chris for making what WILL be an excellent game! And the rest of CIG too!
But a good roleplayer (ie: the traditional pen and paper ones) would accept that when their character dies in a RPG game, it is dead for good and they’d create another one. I’m willing to accept that in SC with the bonus of the “lives” and the fact that assets are transfered to next of kin.
I’m just worried that we’ll be stuck with one character per account because of it
Most online roleplayers are more interested about writing fanfics for their mary sue characters than actually roleplaying.
Writing detailed bios and participating in forum fiction does not mean I don’t rp in the game. Also I don’t want to spend a ton of time writing new character bios for all the potential next of kin and beneficiaries. So going by what is in the article and Wingman has said in chat, I’ll either continue buying “lives” or just name the new one the same as the old and rp around it.
You two might not agree with my style of RP, but I don’t really care if you don’t. I just want the option to play my way, especially if it doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s style.
The bio of the new character should begin:
“My mother was a dancer at a slum bar in the city of Hagel. She had met a handsome trader that was passing through that was so charming, I was born not too long after. He had stopped by now and then, but a I rarely remember those visits now.
When I was five, my mother was diagnosed with Robert’s Syndrom, a common disease that compels the individual to randomly escape what ever confined space they find themselves with as much haste as possible. Luckily mother had an apartment on the first floor of the community hostel she was raising me in, and there were no windows where she worked and the three exits the bar had lead to wide open walkways and parking flats.
Then one day, as you would expect from the set-up of my tale, tragedy struck. Mother had slipped while swinging around on the dance pole at her job and hit her head on the brass guard bar at the edge of the stage. They rushed her to the hospital to sew up her wound and left her unattended to rest. She had an escape fit when she woke up and a nearby window had been left ajar. The ward she was in was several stories up and overlooking a high-speed causeway.
I don’t care to consider the rest of the incident. Regardless of what came next, the event made me an orphan.
The local community center had sent out messages to find my father, and in reply they received the account information for a small trust fund to pay for my boarding and modest schooling.
I never did make too many friends at the boarding house, although an old timer that lived down the hall would avail me with stories of his past as a privateer destroying ships and taking the cargos of anyone the UEE considered performing acts deleterious to their citizens.
Then one day I was called to the front office after watching the sun set behind the cloud veiled mountains and was presented with an urn and a set of documents. After escaping death many a time by luck and credits, the sun had finally set upon my wayward father.
After his end, I again had a similar situation to my birth. He left me no memories of our relationship, and in his passing, here there was passed to me his funds, the keys to his garage and his unfamiliar legacy.
With these possessions, I was offered a choice to fulfill a series of tasks to prove myself to the government. I had not just the certificates of ownership to the ships in my father’s… Nay, mine. My own ships. I now owned the tools to make myself a citizen of the stars.”
And you should be able to, but I do have a similar concern as you do. That if I become attached to a character that I’ve created and I want to ensure that it doesn’t die, the idea of “buying lives” may penalize people like me, especially if they’re going to cost alot of ingame credits
Be careful with your choices for where you go, who you deal with, how much defenses your ship(s) have and your character will have a longer life. That’s more realistic for role play than unlimited re-spawns.
Thank you for your posting Chrichton, we pretty much share opinions.
Agreed with you friend. especially about naming the next character the same as the dead one; I really do not want to keep finding names/callsigns for all my characters. This needs to be in-game, especially since it’s a figthing game by defenition and each of us will be dying lots.
I would think a simple numeral would suffice here.
Even in RL we would have John Doe, John Doe the Second, John Doe the Third etc, as it’s quite common practice to name heirs after their father.
Ideally though you do need to name descendants differently as the histories that Chris is talking about building will get a little confusing if there is just one “John Doe” who seems to accomplish everything over a thousand-year lifespan!
I disagree. I think that is one way to play it, but another perfectly valid way for some of us is to RP the same character and “ignore” the death. Being allowed to name my “new” character the same as the old without a suffix would not harm anyone and it would go a long way to making this system easier to swallow.
I dont get it? You want to be able to pay to never die but if you do die, you want to come back with, Same Ship, Same name, no changes?
Battlefield 3 works that way – you just die and come back 7 seconds later, all good – time to play with no strategy or skill… yay!
Why not just make all ship indestructible and have no death at all?
Or you could just replace the player pieces in monopoly with little tiny spaceships and play in the safe confines of your own home.
Seriously, Who cares if you have to change name or if you are made to be “Crichton, the 2nd”?
Simple, Dont go into un-policed areas, dont kill in policed areas – or if you do any of the above…. Be Awesome and dont die…
Just sayin’
All jokes aside, I respect that you want to play the kind of games that you like, with mechanics that you prefer – But so does Chris R. Your kind of games already exist – so lets try this new one where you have to be careful and plan ahead else you will die and become “Crichton, the 2nd”
I’m loving the idea, so far. I cannot wait to see it in action! However, I don’t like the idea of “taking the game away from the player” via being able to be “captured”…but I do believe in Chris Roberts…so we’ll see how it goes!
Sounds Awesome. I remember writing some backstory for a character in another game, a grizzled asteroid miner that used to be a fighter pilot, 2 prosthetic legs from a bad crash, a replacement arm and one eye. Went by the callsign ‘lucky’. Yeah I’m gonna get robot legs!
Fair enough, I’m willing to give Chris the benefit of th doubt on this one. As Terry Pratchett would say in his books “It’s a million to one shot – but it just might work!”
Bit worried about the “lives” aspect of it as that does seem to set up the idea of players being able to buy themselves more lives and continue with their characters. This itself might be a good or bad thing, I dunno. We’ll have to see what happens in the beta.
But please let us have multiple character slots, as this idea of “next of kin” does sound as if it’s being rolled into one
But you do know that “Million to one shots work nine times out of ten” right?
Ah, big creds for the TP references, both of you.
I see, Chris has a vision about everything!
I like the idea to do it like this, not losing the game progress, but having a new person. Reminds me at old economy-sims like The Guild, where you have your family and will die eventually and your kids will take over.
And i really hope this game will give us the infrastructures for great roleplay.
I think this is a great idea. I can see a lot of possibilities. Just curious though, it would seem that it would be possible that your “next of kin” could be a character with the same name as your original. this could lead to “cloning” aka like Eve anyway. Unless there is going to be some kind of filter to prevent it. I could also see this practice becoming a sort of stigma.
Read through it and I thought this was well played out. I am not a role playing guy anyways so perma death does not bug me much. I like the system and the notion I will be attending my own funeral.
You don’t have to be a ‘role playing guy’ to be concerned of a real permanent death mechanic, a game where you always start from scratch while loosing all progress would only be enjoyable by a few elite ‘hardcore’ players.
Yea, but you won’t loose everything, the ships and money will be inherited. And since money is the best equivivalent to XP, I don’t see the problem. The only thing you loose is the name, so the only ones who would have any problem with it should be fanfic writing hardcore RP players.
I originally thought this just wouldn’t bother me one way or the other, but I am very impressed at how well thought out this game mechanic is! Not that we should have expected anything less than pure brilliance, of course…
Capturing pilots and selling them into slavery should earn you the same sort of black mark as shooting at an escape pod, just not as severe. Otherwise, every pirate will be doing it to the point of tediousness.
This wasn’t mentioned, but I would also hope that final death wouldn’t cause you to need to reset your friends lists and squadron affiliation!
I like the death system very much, a very good solution just between permdeath and eternal life.
(also like the new website background)
Wow, a unique approach to the whole ‘dying’ part. I really like the concept, it’s different to what everyone else is doing, and this is what SC is all about. Really makes you think twice about attacking that freighter or whatever. That should prevent a lot of the stuff I hate about EVE (sorry to refer to that game). Of course, Pirates won’t like that but that’s one of the reasons I like it.
Bollocks, I love it! :3
This system is great! It really makes the difference between Star Citizen and any other online game.
A very interesting read and a good take on character death. It will be fun to see what kind of network of character connections I’ll come up with as they die.
I’m also glad to hear that NPCs are unique. That’s one of the biggest things that draws me out of other MMOs, knowing that other players will be repeating the same mission and killing the same things you just did. It’s even worse when you can see them doing it.
AMEN Brother….thats what killed me in WOW..and repetiveness in other MMOs…this TRUE persistent online game is newAGE all the way…I dont think that other MMOs have stated themselves as being persistent..
when gamers around the globe are moaning about missing innovation and no one can put his finger on what exactly is missing for it to be innovative, there comes some guy called chris roberts and puts all designers to shame after 10 years of being out of business. i bow to you, sir!
taking an old mechanic like lives and incorporating it into a death system is ingenious. and not just having lives, but making their loss dependant on how someone dies. great!
a discussion that is mostly colored black or white has been turned into multiple shades of grey.
while i have some concern regarding the technical side of the game, the sheer awesomeness of the game mechanics we know so far, could actually make me forget some of my principles completely.
chris should be awarded a medal or something!
While I have some concerns and a different opinion than Chris on parts of his ideas I can only agree with you, gorg.
Love it, love it all. Trust in CR!
Glad that there’s a choice of male or female, though. I may indulge my feminine side with one character
No grief system is perfect however a greifer may want to think twice before attacking a newbie in a game like this.
Nah, they’ll just attack them anyway and either destroy their escape pod to gain an instant bad rep, or capture them and sell them into slavery.
cool, I hope to attend many of your glories funerals
I really like how this system will create penalties on griefers. Someone who sticks around high security space shooting at new players will rapidly accumulate deaths and have increasingly severe restrictions on their movements and livelihoods.
I also like how it seems as if it is partially your choice and partially your ability that will allow you to keep a character ‘alive’ longer. You can seek out those fancy ways to add extra lives to yourself, and spend money that direction, or not.
It facilitates RP in people who want the risk of death, and the people who don’t. And it seems to me very well thought out.
One option that I’d like to see is the ability to change your beneficiary during play; you might think up a name or story you like well after character creation but before your first character dies.
Great Idea
CR, is the title a reference to Arthur Miller’s “Death of a Salesman?” Gotta love classic American theater.
Chris Roberts, I just wanted to say I’ve wanted a death system like this in a game for over 10 years now. You just officially moved to the top of my list of favorite game designer for having the courage to make this death system. I’m absolutely ecstatic your going to do a perma-death and descendant system. Your opening the doors to innovation for future games.
Whatever you do, don’t let anybody talk you out of doing this kind of death system for Star Citizen! Playtest and iterate until it works!
Love it. Bounty hunters will be hanging around funerals looking for rich angry relatives. Good business.
Overall I’m pleased with this system.
This was about what I read between the lines of the comments Chris mentioned in the Christian Gamers interview, but a couple of questions pertaining to the game economy and player-to-player interaction need answering:
1. Do contracts made by the primary character pass to the next of kin upon death? If so, what happens if the lower Citizenship level of the next of kin make the contract impossible to fulfill?
2. For non-contractual relationships in game — friends I meet in game because we frequent similar places — how will they know they are interacting with the same human when my character name is different?
I actually have many more (see this: http://eidolonius.com/dablog/2013/01/22/economic-implications-character-permadeath/ ) but those are the two biggies.
For the record, I’m completely satisfied with this solution. Like Rabean above I have some questions about the slavery system (I’d suggest the slaver fee to be equal to your body repair fee as a workaround), but otherwise I’m happy to In Chris We Trust this one…
Eido
For non-contractual relationships in game — friends I meet in game because we frequent similar places — how will they know they are interacting with the same human when my character name is different?
==========================
Me: “Hey, Eiodo! Its me! I used to be ‘Tonko’ I died, so now I am playing as my Brother”
Eido: “Argh, too bad dude, sorry to hear that. What happened?”
Me: “I was transporting contraband to the Dothraki system and I thought I could save time by skimming past The Kingslanding system, but a Cop scanned my cargo hold and before I new it, I was on fire and I was so distracted I forgot to eject! And you know me, I have been killed so many times before because I suck at dog fighting, that I guess my number was up and they couldn’t revive me in med lab”
Eido: “Ah well, tough break. Hey you wanna go hunt down that guy who killed you the time before that?”
Me: “Sounds good, let me just use the bathroom first, I’ve had 2 liters of Coke and that jump point takes Ages… back in a sec”
Eido: “Cool, I’ll meet you in the Hanger bay”
Genuinely OOC (out of character) talk, not really RPG style, but I guess it won’t matter to many.
I guess you’ll also keep your buddy list, because that one will be tied to your account, so you’ll be able to find your friends again, tell them about it and they’ll probably also see your account name (or similar).
For non-contractual relationships in game — friends I meet in game because we frequent similar places — how will they know they are interacting with the same human when my character name is different?
How about your Friends get invited to your Funeral too and get to meet your next of Kin (new Avatar) at it, this could be a little cut scene they get when they next log in or touch down, but it would also populate the Funeral with Avatars of your Friends and in game Family and News of your Death could be circulated in in game News Feeds including naming of your Successor So Casual Acquaintances might notice
that would be awesome
I love this idea. It would make those funerals so much more meaningful as the dead player. As the friend, it would likely take the former of a formal invitation card that the player would get the notification from, and at that point either accept the invitation (view the cutscene) or not.
I must applaude this, I have seldom seen a better thought out death mechanic and I love putting a fresh spin on the what I thought was an outdated system with lives. Good job CR I especially love the fact that there’s perma death for the NPC’s as well. Even more now than before I think this game may well be something very sepcial.
I think the idea of pod killing is a mistake. this is just like Eve. It is one of the reasons I didn’t like in Eve. I think if we manage to Eject we should be safe from Death. I can also see a flaw int this plan. What happens to the pilot who fires an area effect missile at a target ship and catches an ejected pilot in the blast, killing him. he didn’t intend to kill the pilot but now he has a bounty on his head.
You are thinking too much, an ejection pod will probably take you a good 250m away from your ship. Far enough to avoid any explosions.
Then that would probably be that pilot’s big mistake
Pod killing is a good choice for the victor. It gives them the option of deciding how evil they want to be percieved, and how hunted they’ll want to be (which will probably be intense).
I like how staring down a defeated, helpless pilot in empty space and deciding if you want to spare him or execute him mirrors the classic Roman gladiator trope of the “Thumbs up, thumbs down” mercy decision. This is a beautiful little reference to the setting! Great work CR, I really look forward to designing my dynasty.
I wonder if this could be taken further and we can hire on our living next of kin as crew for our ships… Maybe that would be taking it too far!
Don’t fire indiscriminately? I would imagine that you might be able to steer the pod at least, or it would automatically get far away from the action. The difference with Eve is that sure, you could pod kill, but there are consequences, and those consequences follow you when you die.
I was also thinking about this. When in a dogfight fighting for your life and you accidentally shoot (or fly over) an ejected player… You don’t have to target him… just hit him while firing on a ship moving behind him. The game will not know if you aimed for the player or if it was an accident. I’m pretty sure these accidents will happen.
How can we avoid accidentally killing a player?
Id like to think that the “POD” is hardened sort of like the armored tub of the A10 cockpit can take heavy fire and survive. building off that assumption destroying an escape pod would be an intentional targeting and pouring on of fire, not the random collision/ caught in the line of fire during a dog fight thing.
not to mention you have to be a horrilew pilot to bump into a tiny pod considering the size of space, players, and their ships.
Excellent read!
if the execution is as good as this sounds.
Game of the decade?
Sounds PERFECT Chris. You have a bold vision and I salute you for it.
Stay on target.
CR did you take inspiration from my post? http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/forum/showthread.php?13178-ideas-In-game-handling-of-player-death&p=38335#post38335
Sounds really great and reasoned – but still one question: Is suicide possible? … Just in case I got slaved and don`t wanna live with this shame
Anyway. Can`t wait to take my hands on this game, the magic is already rushing in.
This is fantastic!
Question though what if a character rarely “dies”? Is there any sort of “healing” or regaining of “lives”? I understand the whole “till the body gives up thing but what if say Pilot A “dies” x times and then really dies, If Pilot B “dies” in the same ways but with more time in between each “death” will he still be alive given that the body has had more time to heal and adjust to the wound or will he die after the “set amount of “deaths”"?
Q. How can I reduce my chances of dying?
Ship upgrades will include a variety of systems designed to increase the survivability of vehicle loss, including improved ejection systems, improved space suits and personal shielding, better power plant cores (to give you more time to escape) and various automated systems (so that you can set your fighter to eject you after a certain amount of damage has been suffered.)There will also be an upgrade system surrounding your “battle damage”; if your character loses an eye or an arm and you would like a natural replacement rather than a cybernetic-looking implant, you will be able to pursue these in certain markets. Additionally there may be certain medical procedures or limb / organ replacements that can increase your lifespan (effectively add a few lives back)
Well yes I read that but that’s not really the question I asked. That is more about prevention of “death”, I was asking about if being more careful means you last longer before your real death because you harm yourself less often or is it just because you take longer to use up your “lives”.
You’ll harm yourself less often so take longer to die. Assuming you don’t gain “extra lives” via some sort of medical procedure. I just seems like how long it takes your body to reach the critical threshold. So playing carefully will net you a longer in game “life”.
then maybe this will help more (especially the “not a single, static counter” and “different risks impacting survivabillity” things?:
Q. How any “lives” will I get?
The exact number of “lives” will be balanced as development of the game progresses. The intention is to allow multiple “deaths” before you’re properly dead. So expect to wake up in the med bay at least half a dozen times if not more. And getting to this point won’t be common unless you are participating in a lot of boarding actions or flying in areas where there is no law and order. Please note that it will not ultimately be a single, static counter: taking different risks and dying in different ways will impact your overall survivability at different rates. Remember, the key to Star Citizen is visceral realism: so while the system works this way under the hood, there’s not going to be a “life counter” at the bottom of your screen!
When I read that this game was starting to look like another mmorpg, I was a bit skeptical to say the least. Not that I don’t enjoy mmorpg games, but there are so many of them out there, I wondered what exactly was going to set this one apart and make it so much better. After reading this, it show that not only will the death sequence help, but the determination of the RSI team at making sure this is a game people want to play and will continue to want to play really means alot to me. There is a certain skill that comes with playing an rpg, but your progress really comes with leveling up. This game is very promising at fixing that too. So far its fixed just about every problem I can think of with most mmorpg’s. I though about travel time, and how they would fix that, then I realized you’ve got your own spaceship. Who wouldn’t want to travel all day in their own spaceship?
this a thousand times this! this just allayed every single fear i had a bout the so called “perma death mechanic” this might be one of the more ingenious ideas i have heard…..well done sir well done
Awesome I love it. Well done guys.
I love this way of doing death so much but as I read more and more I wonder if the current crowd funding is enough for Chris to do this all. Will there be additional fee’s or monthly premium accounts like eve or planetside 2 to pay for all this extra work of creating respawning NPC bosses, star citizen lore etc. I already subscribe but I’m wondering how this gets accomplished say 3 years out or 4 years out.
YES! This is going to enhance role playing without a doubt.
And Snipers will be the most hated enemy, like in the real world. All those head shots.
How far are you going to shoot in the average spaceship? :p
I suspect shotguns will be the weapon of choice.
This sounds like an amazing system, really well thought out. THIS is why I backed this game, Chris Roberts is a genius.
Looks perfect to me! I completely agree with the risk/reward system and it looks well-balanced to me.
My deepest respect, Chris. This game, your dream, is going to be awesome! I like the way you think and the way you try to revive a platform and a genre which received great injustice over the last half decade.
“” IN R S I WE TRUST! “”
Sounds awesome!
I just love this new style of handling ingame deaths, the way it’s meant to be!
Quite orignal this. Not sure how prison or slavery is going to work but will enjoy testing the h*ll of it in beta
I love the creativity and respect being put into the death scheme. It’s going to make for some immersive, heart-pounding gameplay without the frustration that often accompanies games that “punish” failure harshly.
It will also create a spectrum of “nastiness” for PCs and NPCs. It will leave room for characters who, when they have to, blast others out of the sky but aren’t cold-blooded killers, and also for extra-slimy pirates who build a reputation by making sure they kill their opponents.
I can imagine a team effort into such a pirate’s territory; desperately trying to tractor in an ejected friend so they don’t meet a grisly death!
And while failure and death brings your character closer to permadeath, the scars you can collect will serve as a badge of honor or infamy — so failure will be a positive addition to your character’s story, not just a “darn it, restart,” moment.
Really? We are in the 30th Century, and still have sex segregation, wash rooms for boys and girls? Seriously? Where are the wash rooms ala Starship Troopers, where there is no more sex segregation – the emancipated society of the human species in all its varieties. Immersion gets a major hick-up when I have to choose a wash room. This is soooo 20th Century!
Can I please play an alien?
ROFL xDDD
To be honest I thought of exactly that
Don’t expect humanity to achieve “ascension” any time soon… lol
I got the feeling that Zea complains more about a lack of options. Like, say a 3rd door xP
I have to give kudos to my boss here, he is driving this bad boy, and we are loving making this game.
I have not worked this hard in 10 years, and loving every minute of it.
I got the feeling he is driving himselves pretty hard too
Just make sure you guys get through this with your health and lives intact.
It’s easy for me to say, sitting back and waiting to get my hands on the game, but the hard work will be totally worth it! So.. work even harder!
No seriously, i’m very impressed with CIG thus far. Kudos to ALL of you.
We can all see how dedicated you all are to this. We are extremely grateful and cannot wait to get into the game.
But like Xris said, make sure you don’t overdo and negatively impact your health and get you in trouble with significant others
I still have doubts and concerns… but you should know that I have trust in you guys, Eric.
Despite my concerns I can only salute to Chris’ well thought-out ideas about the game mechanics and his vision of the game.
Just don’t enjoy the “presents” you showed us yesterday too much. Like I said, you had so much booze that looks like you’ll be able to develop an alcoholism too and not just the game.
PS: There might soon be a bottle of Finlandia coming that way too.
Absolutely Love it
Chris, there seems to be a vast gulf between NPCs and players in this universe. While players aren’t immortal, they appear to have the constitution of an Ork compared to NPCs. Which makes me wonder if exceptional NPCs like Kid Crimson represent the exception of that rule? I wouldn’t mind tbh.
I really, really hope that Chris brings back old bosses. Good villains are the ones who stick around, and having an old pirate everyone thought was dead come back bigger and stronger would be such a momentous occasion. By all means, kill them off. You think…
Well, the best ones are the ones in the shadows, the Blofeld who’s face isn’t shown stroking a cat in a swivel chair. That trows his henchmen and boss henchmen at you, then escape just before the hero gets to them.
Au contraire. The best ones are like Moriarty (see Sherlock Holmes). Deeply embedded in society, high ranking, brutally intelligent, ruthless, who manage to get away with literally everything. Those are the true devils, not the predictable, dim-witted or opportunistic and unwashed barbarians that you associate average pirates with. Of course there are exceptions, such as they are.
Awesome stuff! If SC delivers on all of this it’ll be one of, if not THE, best game ever imho. Just fantastic!
I have to say I love this system. The game Chris has in his head… that’s the game I want too!
This article tells me that my trust was well placed in RSI. This is a bold move that is going to allow for awesome role-play while balancing the combat. This was one of my hard-hitting questions, and it has been answered to my satisfaction.
Bravo!
Great news ! Looking forward to Alpha…..
regards
McConn
Thank you for the big update.
I was really… sceptic at the biginning but now I’m quite happy with the system. Think it will work quite fine. And i hope the Simulators can also be used in Co-op/versus mode. So fight/practice with real friends in simulator, not only with NPCs.
That’s an interesting way to deal with player death.. I can’t wait to see how this pans out
Also, how about non-scarred characters who are very ‘old’ in-game wise? Like a veteran fighter pilot who’s been in dozens of engagements but was never wounded, despite having enough kills to their name. I would take pride in that, too.
I love the way deaths will be handled
What would be awesome in regards to the being captured would be for instance having a bionic arm modified to contain a mechanism to cut the chains your being held with or whatever is holding you down. After wich you could sneak up on your “host” and stab him/her in the back, stealing the ship in the process.
I dont think taking captives should be a risk free at any time
One anti-griefing mechanic that just came up in conversation with a friend:
Asset forfeiture. When a character kills an ejected and defenseless pilot, the killing character obtains an asset forfeiture point. When any character perma-dies, the UEE forfeits a percentage of their assets before passing the remainder on to the beneficiary, based on how many asset forfeiture points have been accrued.
So a greifer can go around deliberately killing ejected pilots all day, but when they eventually die themselves there is an economic consequence.
+1 to this
There’s a problem with this idea though if we really are allowed to make more than one character (independent from each other) – a griefer will just make a new character, he doesn’t care about his death nor his progress.
Depends, if he only gets to murder one guy (who doesn’t even die, only loses a ‘life’) before he gets hounded out of UEE space, and character destruction/deletion + creation of wholly new one takes an inordinate amount of time (much longer than just dying->resurrection) I figure they’ll not bother and go beat up on fools who go into lawless space unprotected instead. Making a long cool-down between character deletion and recreation will help, that becomes longer and longer for each time if you do it during a shorter timespan.
Lastly the system should keep check after players who murder, then delete and recreate character repeatedly and institute some kind of punishment, like only allowing that player a single character for that account. (sure, he could buy a second game for one more account. But that costs 50$, and then they’d single-character that account too. And recreating new chars would take longer and longer. Only a ridiculously small subset of idiots would shell out hundreds of dollars and time to grief under such circumstances)
Also insurance companies are not obliged to sell insurances to everybody. If there is someone who has a price on his head, the insurance companies may just refuse to sell to such a player. A griefer would quickly lose all his money buying new ships when bounty hunters and police constantly blow him up.
Nice! +1
I’ve read everything! And now the death mechanics look way better than what I actually thought it to be. But no cyber implants on me! I’ll keep the organic implants. lol
Thank you Chris and entire CIG team!
I wonder what happens to our in-game names (Star Citizen; sounds like that’s the MMO portion).
Im Happy with this.
In Chris Roberts we trust.
Love it! It just goes to show all you need is a little faith in CR and he always delivers. Well though out and on the money. Everything I was hoping for and more! In Chris we trust!
i hope there is some kind of family history you can go and look at, that lists your previous charterers and there noteworthy achievements for sentimental or bragging purposes, “this ship smuggled gun parts through the waists of X and Y systems under my grandfather, it was the ship that my father used to kill dread pirate Roberts” and have a screen possibly a ships log kind of thing that shows what each character has done with the ship before they died for good.
Yes!!!
omg a lot to translate in french !
I love permadeath!
I would have even reduced it to one single life. Make risk actually mean something!
Without permadeath, pirates become much too big a nuisance in a game like this, to the point of taking the fun out of the game for many other players and especially newbies (like it happened in Vendetta Online).
Sounds amazing. Love the idea.
Okay… Somehow managed to finish reading and… that’s what I call a HUGE update. That update is certainly something to think about.
Still the biggest problems of the whole idea, the integration of the successor into the organizations the player was formerly part of is not ideal or logical (!) at all IMHO and damages the whole RP aspect – and who the successor may be if you’re a loner was also not covered properly
“Note that your next-of-kin need not be family members” – that does not really cover what exactly happens in case you die as loner. If you create the new character you’d (as an role player) likely want to recreate the exact same character as the last time.
Further it was not covered what exactly happens if you don’t want to be part of Sq42 and why you’re in the bathroom of an UEE fleet recruitment office at all. It does not explain yet why every player of the game experiences more or less the same actions and story in the exact same Squadron and if Sq42 is more of an elite unit it does not explain how it comes that so many players are from this unit or how you ended up there. Therefore there should be a different beginning for players who don’t want to be affiliated with the UEE military at all or don’t even want to be part of the UEE from the beginning – maybe because they made that character specifically for pirating for example.
I know it may be way too early in the process for such things but please, Chris, pay attention to these things as well and keep them in mind while working on the game mechanics and fiction of the game.
If you die without a successor, the state usually takes your possessions. Who’s to say that UEE will not auction it out or reward it to a worthy person (i.e the next character) ?
As for being in the UEE I think it said in one of the Spectrum Dispatch fictional thingies that there is mandatory draft in SC so everyone *must* join the military. So it seems like we all are freshly drafted pilots at various stages in training. Seems rather plausible to me.
But you are right that the next-of-kin affiliations might need some more work and explaining.
I have not posted this comment as a reply to anyone but it ended up as exactly that?! -.-’
Seems nick picking is the name of yor game.
Happy guy many stuff to come for your pleasure.
Even the most isolated loner will at least one name he could give as a beneficiary. Even if he/she doesnt really know them that well.
Interesting how many claim to be “Role Players”, but cannot accept the death of their character.
a) After having read all of CRs thoughts, you’ll be able to eject most of the time if not all of the time and you’ll hardly ever die as a prudent player. In case you REALLY do die, it’s probably been such a long time you’ve been playing your char and as a true role-player you will be embracing the change at that point.
b) If you cannot live with the fact that your char will die, make up your own persistent world server and you can gather up with fellow players who want to role-play their characters in “Dungeon Master” style, where they only die if they choose to – or not at all. Regular players might even join there and take upon the common death system for themselves for the good mix.
i think your the first to ever mention that RPers can just make their own sever with infinite lives (and it’s sated when you make a sever, you can do just that) i just hope the RP’s that don’t want to day read your message or figure it out for themselves
i mean don’t want to die, not day
Exactly my thinking, i have been play pen and paper rpgs for a long time, and what makes an rpg is not atributes or levels or none of those (they help determine what one can and cant do of course), what makes it is an evolving world with a story and characters with personality and motivations.
As it stands the story behind star citizen does not contain gods or immortal mary sues, to be honest i think its already a lot of compromise allowing someone to have so many lives, even if medical science has advanced so much.
Still SC is the game we have all been waiting for, even if you want to be an immortal entity that does not even scar, you can do that, just not in the main server, and since this game is so moddable im sure there will be plenty of servers floating around with different configuration.
In conclusion you can just name your sucessor the same name of your character, skip the death cinematic and use same bio effectively pretending you never died at all, that way everyone can have their favorite mary sues flying around CR’s servers!
Holy mother of god! They thought of everything and/or actually took in some fan ideas. The death mechanic does sound very reasonable. They really are going to give you many many second chances not to lose your character, and it sounds like griefers will hopefully be at a minimum. Also the way you create your character sounds really cool.
It would be really cool to continue the legacy of (and/or avenge) your former character when/if they eventually die.
As far as anti griefing goes i think those of us who pledged for multiple ships will make em think twice.
“If I blow this guy in the freelancer up, what are the chances hes going to jump into a fighter and come back hunting me”
I know I fully intend to use my hornet to get revenge on anyone who scratches my lancers paint
Im starting to wonder if you can build an in universe rep for hunting down murderous players
This. Whole reason I added a hornet on top of my lancer too lol.
Initally it was my inner redneck pledged fer tha Lancer its like my Truck, work horse, reliable, go any wear.
And if ya gots a work horse ya neads a sexey killin machine ta go wit it hence tha hornet
Sounds like some good stuff, I’m all about having a fear of death. Now just don’t pull a “Project Ego” on us
Bullseye.
I trust CR!
Velly intellestink. I think that’ll work just fine.
Amazing write-up, Chris. Thanks for flushing the topic out, it makes a lot more sense now. I like the medical reconstruction options for extending the life of your character, it adds a great sense of ‘future-realism’ to what we can expect in the game.
My particular moment of excitement reading that was about rescuing other players. I’ll be doing a lot of small fleet battles if I can manage it, and the thought of rescuing a squadron-mate in my Connie – and then him hopping into my turret – excites the hell out me.
Very well done mr Roberts! I was against perma-death first, but after carefully reading your description all I can say it, history will be written with SC in many ways, truly brilliant game design!!
I really like the idea presented here and for me it makes a lot more sense than in several other RPGs. So hopefully this will be implemented into the final game!
I wonder if scenes like this will be happening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNRnV1zNzIE
That is some good news.
I’m planing for this achievement:
“Not so human anymore” > Have most of your body parts replaced by protheses, even your nose.
but still havent been shot in tha arse, wipeing with metal claws adds to the pucker factor:P
This is some amazing system! I am VERY excited.
PLEASE TAKE ME OUT OF MY COMFORT ZONE! I am sick and tired of all these games with same result, same rules, rame mechanics, same MMO over and over again. Finally something really NEW and refreshing. Kudos to CR and CIG. You guys rock!
you make me wish I had some more extra money lying around to throw at you… THIS SOUNDS AWESOME!!!
I also think it would be cool if ‘next of kin’ or whoever comes after you would start the game in some different circumstances then your previous you. Like sorta different ‘Origin’ of your new YOU. That would be awesome.
I do have one request for the Single Player portion; I’m all for not allowing saves in-mission, but could it at least be allowed to save and exit? Just for those times when life pops up unexpectedly, but we’d hate to lose our spot in the mission and start over.
Sounds pretty decent overall. The only thing I’m wondering about right now is where it says that when you eject that there needs to be a certain distance between you and hostile ships in order for you to be rescued. That mechanic appears to be rather open to abuse since griefers could camp your escape pod and prevent you from being rescued for a looong time if they wanted to.
Another question: What about character names? Are they unique at all? Will they free up immediately after a character’s death or…?
To be honest I think I would have preferred a classic respawn mechanic where you keep your character (maybe with slight penalties on death) but I will embrace this proposed system with open arms and an open mind. Something different for a change… sure, why not?
they could camp and hold you in instance, this could also be be solved with a timeout period after ejecting which gives them enough time to find you a line up a shot if they choose.
they would also be wasting there time in the same instance and a new player could enter the instance a start a fight with them too. remember the instances are going to be dynamic with new players joining as they get near enough, so there risking there ship and life to sit there and annoy you.
I think we’ll have different account names (callsigns) and character names, so my character may be Bob Bobenberg IVX but what you see floating above my characters head is still Dread Pirate Pete regardless.
Also, certainly you can have the same character name time after time, lots of kids are named after their parents or grandparents.
Amazing concept, cant wait to see it in game:) Anyway if the game will be half as good as it sounds now, im going to die playing it. What i dont get, how such small studio with limited funds can make such a large universe.
I think this was summed up by Eric aka Wingman on the show: 20/80 guys, hero stuff =)
I really, really like this! Your building an awesome, outstanding MMORPG with some fantastic unique mechanics. Keep up the awesome work dude!
Mr. Roberts, you immersed me in the wing commander serious, you tractored me in with privateer, but with Star Citizen I am already completely and utterly lost in the universe and the game is still 2 years away. Absolutely fantastic read. Didn’t think it was possible, but I’m even more excited to play this game come 2014!
Very happy with the setup. I just hope the ‘loss’ for the beneficiary is large enough to make the ‘permadeath’ truely meaningful. Looking more and more forward to taking a spin around the ‘verse.
Very good ideas Chris, keep up the good work man
I love this concept for perma-death I think its bold and new to gaming, cant wait to see it implemented with the rest of SC.
” If you are sold into slavery, you will need to buy your freedom.” Hm… Interessting. I wonder how many characters will have “prostitute” added to their gravestone as a result of this.
Fly safe.
use protection
Well I have some question concerning the cybernetic implants.
1st will you have benefits from implants, like better strength, better sight.
and 2nd will you be able to get them on purpose like the extra lives.
I could also imagine a System where you have to “refuel” them every xx in game hours, to make staying organic more desirable.
And a second question will there be a System for mock battles like training fights, or arena fights with non lethal resp. non hull penetrating weapons.
It’s says that there’s a training simulator in each player’s hangar.
A short summary on death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7PlTaawfQ
It is a Interesting system, well planned. However i realy dont like it. have played alot of games over the years and what i have found is that people will grief no matter the punishment.
And with a system where my char will acctualy die.. that is just not good. in a singleplayer game sure go for it. In a online world where lag/dc etc can suddently cost you the char you have invested a great deal of time on. Thats just not good.
The game is probably going to be amazing but the thought of loosing my char de to random griefers or just getting that random lag spike/dc will probably make me not play it. and by the looks of the polls i have seen on the forums it would seem that alot of people dont like the Perma death
imo make a seperate instance for the Hardcore players. that will still give them the brag rights they so dearly want. And let the more casual player still have their fun exploring ect
I think it was stated that prvate servers will have the option to turn off the permadeath.
Griefers will be hunted down. many of us pro PVP fellers pledged for fighters, me i got a lancer to pay for the upgrades to my hornet and the Hornet to hunt down anyone who gives me problems when im in my lancer and im sure im not the only one who would willingly come to a nearby players aid.
The base comunity from the pledge campaign seems a solid upstanding bunch who wont tolerate goons be we pirates, traders, mercs, miners, or bounty hunters if were close the goon dies, better yet blown up contact a pirate and let them sell him as a slave
I disagree.
I think permadeath will deter most griefers.
And even the hard-core griefers who will go on griefing no matter what the cost, will be severely limited because each time they are hunted down and killed for good, they will have to work their way up until they are in a position of power again – so they will not be able to engage in griefing full-time.
And independently of that issue, permadeath also makes the game a lot more immersive for everybody because taking risks will actually be, well, risky…
It’s not about “brag rights”, it’s about wanting a truly fun multi-player experience.
PS: I’m a casual player myself.
Wow, I have to admit I’m impressed. I think this is the best death mechanic I’ve seen so far. It sounds like its found a good balance between not being to harsh, so that people will still want to pvp, and not too lax, giving a sense of morality and discouraging griefing. Sweet.
Awesome!
Genius, Chris you’ve clearly given this a lot of thought, and I’m sure you’ll make further tweaks, especially through every level of developedment.
Howcome nobody noticed the frasing: “whether it’s lifetime hull insurance for everyone that has backed so far”. During the campaign, yes?
The part where people who destroy pods get a hard time is nice, so I hope the pods are hard enough to destroy that it can’t possibly happen by accidental fire/collision.
Hmm, I wonder if we can get sucled in by black holes, get caught in the blast of a star quake, or perhaps passing through the emission beam of a pulsar. Space has many hazards. I hope we’ll be able to encounter a great number of them.
Thank you, Chris, for laying all this out.
I also like the idea of the Galactopedia being updated with the exploits of the player characters, so that even if your character eventually dies, he/she still becomes a part of the lore of the game via discovery or victory in combat.
And I am so glad to see the endlessly respawning bosses mechanic being put to rest. Once a unique NPC has been retired, not only does that eliminate players repeatedly going to the same spot to kill the same boss for a loot drop, it gives the devs the chance to come up with new characters, scenarios and locations, giving players another reason to explore and look for new adventures rather than repeating the same ones.
It sounds as if the NPC loop is “sort of” still there, though. It’s just that the NPC’s name wil be changed.
+1 to this, now thats a death wish i could easily live with, for some this will never be an issue, for the thrill seekers it will be there last rights, lol. You pay for health care to make you better, why not in SC, i can see this will work far far better than the pain in the ass EVE pod death and little penality. Nice thinking Chris, this is why i backed SC, to infinity and beyond!!!!!!!!!!!
This is good to know…and it has me wondering say…my character has a kid does at the start does that mean we will not have romantic relations (like getting married or just in a relationship) with other characters to create kids it will all be done off screen so to speak with someone we never see?
I was also wondering what if we want to be a life long member of the military will there be advancement like to Admiral of our own fleet or something of that nature Or will we be just fighter pilots the whole time we stay in the military and just gain rank that way?
One other thing say we do leave what we have to our kid (if we make one at the start) and we have another in game do we get to split it between them or will it be that the first one will get it all no matter what?
Just some question I had off the top of my head after reading I like where this is going and looking forward to it more each day keep up the good work (can’t wait to create my own Inigo Montoya
)
Would like to have some sort of romantic relation and with other characters to create kids. It would also be fun to be part of the military in that way.
Btw, really great job CR and crew on this. Looks like the perfect way to do it.
Wow, great explanation! Sounds like a great system!
Absolutely phenomenal. The game I’ve always wanted to play; I never realized just how tired I was of other MMO’s mechanics towards death… but it was always obvious how the suspension of disbelief was continually broken in those games.
Chris, I love the outline of the game, but there are always true accidents that happen during online FPS games– accidentally running over a friend with a vehicle, shooting just as your buddy steps in front of you, etc.
I’d love to maintain the narrative– that your friend was injured by friendly fire, but I’d like true, honest mistakes to be tempered by a similar game mechanic. Maybe the player donates a large sum of money to the next of kin, or does some sort of community service to atone for their sin? That way, when the enemy ship explodes and the survivor accidentally finds themselves the recipient of the last bullet fired, the player won’t be hounded forever needlessly (note, I said the player, not the character.)
Or maybe the ejection system fires the player out in a pod that’s affectionately known as a coffin– and the coffin is armor plated to some degree, so it has to be an obvious effort by the opponent to truly kill their helpless foe?
Regardless– fantastic work! Very immersive!
There could be feature that if people are marked as “trusted friends”, the police tells you they see it as an accident instead of homicide and you get no penalty for it.
Maybe a ’3 strikes and you’re out’ sort of system – create a record of crimes as you go and your in-game intent becomes obvious?
Spot on! In CR we trust.
Will we be able to pay a doctor for a “medical exam” to see how much damage our various organs have suffered?
Personally, I’m for headshots counting equally defending and attacking; give crews incentive to surrender their ship and cargo. Better to lose your cargo than your life!
PS: Maybe an “inheritance” tax?
I hope not!
Great stuff, Chris. This is going to satisfy a lot of people’s concerns. Plus, it just makes a lot of sense. More than any other class MMO’s model, or the model that Eve uses, I think the life/death model you are creating has the potential to be the most meaningful, the most fun, and the most rewarding.
Bravo, I say! I’m really looking forward to this game, now more than ever.
Regards,
Gary
Portland OR
I knew Chris would bring something new on the table… Great mechanic on death. Bravo! I like how he still thinks that lethality mechanics from 90′s games must make a comeback in modern games. The whole console imvinite automatically system is so childish… Back then we always thought twice before making an ingame decision…
Chris and Team,
Please make the SC insurance policy clear cut, plain and simple.
No fine prints, no hidden messages etc.
Immersion of having to read and understand 100′s of pages of insurance policy is not needed.
This definitely sounds interesting. It is a good middle ground that I can be okay with. I will have to try it out and see how far it is and how i can get my lives back, but great idea. Thanks for listening.
I’m loveing this hours of fun
thank you cr you rock
It would be very interesting if you have correspondence with the Next of Kin in game. Be it mail or maybe you can work the Next of Kin’s name into a mission. ie You’re next of kin has contacted you because there friend is in trouble and you need to rescue them, or they need cargo delivered etc. Depending on how you play or what you standing is, the next of kin always sort of drop relavent little notes to you from time to time.
Thank you for the information Chris!
I have two questions though…
What if I end up accidentally killing a floating pilot? For example, I’m blasting away at his cockpit when he happens to eject, or I’m trying to kill a squirmy enemy and suddenly HE’S THERE! Would suck to be marked The Scum of Society due to an honest accident.
What if our heads get removed by a weapon whilst we’re helplessly floating? Say I’ve really made somebody furious due to my Mad Skills, and he decides it’s worth removing me completely (I’m thinking about those raging youngens that play Halo). Will they have the ability to be that accurate while shooting at the helpless?
Hope somebody with possible answers makes it down this far… Lol
Also, accidentally “running-over” a downed pilot by accident. Shit happens. Can we make amends?
I would tractor in the downed pilot and give him a proper burial.
I’d guess you would have to send the beneficiary quite a lot of credits and/or grant certain assets/privileges to make up for it.
To use an example: if you nuked a character and/or his ship by ‘accident’, then this sets him back quite a bit, especially if the character was very accomplished and the ship plus equipment was either unique or in limited quantity. While you can compensate the loss of some things with credits, others can’t be and may call for some sort of sacrifice or commitment/privileges to make up for it.
when someone mentioned being a wealthy industrialist that never fights and would have to age to die, kinda reminded me of the brothers from Team Fortress 2 that keep spending cash on life support to out live the other brother and having army’s of trained men to fight over land and resources.
Thank you Chris. Sounds very good to me.
I definitely agree with Chris’ point of view on the death mechanics. In my eyes, it’s definitely in line with the game I saw. Yes, the possibility of perma-death is scary but it just makes the game more fun. But I do agree with Deman ^^ about the ship insurance policies.
Sounds awesome. I’ve always liked perma death in games, except for the you-lose-all-your-progress part.
Best of both worlds! Looking forward to acing some fools.
Just wish I could send a mass driver round through someone’s cockpit.
That would be cool.
Like it very much.
Just go your way.
I was expecting less than that detailed mechanic right now.
Looking forward to all the nick pick comming in the forum.
Thank you for this update. I like the look of this system a lot and am looking forward to testing it…
Also the mention of getting paid by the insurance companies for rescuing survivors gives me an idea for a new career
How many times did Chris watch The Princess Bride while updating this dispatch? He released it four days later than most people were expecting. Each of those days, he must have played that Demons Souls game to blow some steam after readin some of the whiney posts online. He needed time for pacing the office and answering some emails… The Princess Bride is 1 hour 38 minutes, and since he probably has that recent Special Edition with all the extras and features, lets just say he could have spent a little over 2 hours with each sitting. Yeah, he may have watched it 8-11 times, and possibly more if he stayed at home over the weekend.
Only 2 comments.
In Chris I trust (more now than ever).
I am proud of the community for supporting such an innovative idea!
Thank you – Lance
Two thumbs up to Chris and Crew!
I really like the sound of this. Looks fun as hell and will actually make me give a crap about the health and well being of my avatar
OH HOLY NUTBALLS I JUST REALIZED HOW AWESOME EJECTING AND DRIFTING THROUGH SPACE WITH AN OCULUS RIFT ON WILL BE
And I hope you wouldn’t lose stereoscopic view of the Oculus Rift if you lose an eye ingame!! .. or maybe as a setting somewhere, to encourage you to get a artificial replacement! That would give it an interesting aspect..
Wow, really indepth death system….I LOVE IT!!!!!
Shhhhhh… Be vewy, vewy quiet; I’m hunting Gweifers!
What can I say! Awesome Chris and Team!
Wow a INgame death system that I have No issues with Awsome
This death system, and game in general gives me great amounts of hope! Over the last several years I’ve grown very frustrated and disgruntled over the current direction in games. Little to no risk, no complexity, over simplification of game machines to reduce or remove any sort of learning curve, favor for console… and the list goes on.
I’ve seen great games like SWG be torn, scrapped, and dumbed down to beyond a shadow of their former self for greed and to cater to the audience that has less than a 2 second attention span.
This death system and game gives me great hope that my best memories are not doomed to only live in the past and I am not alone when everyone else seems to want instant reward and gratification with little or no effort beyond mindless grinding. Thank you soooo much you have my pledge!!
Yep, I share your despair at the way gaming is going. Companies tend to pander too much to “softer” players who want everything and end up destroying good game ideas.
Often even the softer players don’t like that style of gaming. Just because a casual player plays only 1-2 hours a day, or every other day does not mean they are an lazy an dumb that can not handle challenge or any form of risk.
Hopefully after this game is released the rest of the companies will realize how much support a complex and in depth game still has and will start producing quality games again. Even if they don’t wake up at least we all still have this gem to enjoy!
Love the sound of this system!
Very well thought out, I fully support this. If this much detail is put into just this one piece of the game, I can’t wait to play it.
Mr. Roberts…….
Bravo Sir! I agree with everything you have outlined. Without Risk, there is no Reward. But with Risk comes Consequences. You have driven your spaceship through the eye of the needle, allowing for loss, but not letting it be devastating. As someone who has played everything from WoW to the original XCOM (when it was new by the way), I’ve seen and played the whole gambit on “death” in video games. Your solution is most welcome. I am so proud to be a backer! This makes me almost want to upgrade my pledge….;)
Cykoth
I wonder if I discovered a Green Mushroom planet, whether or not I could live forever.
LOL!
Or a fabled planet that holds the ilixir of life?
That’s just awesome. I never opposed permadeath anyways, being the oldschooler I am, but this solution sounds just great.
Also two thumbs up for so much thought process and being so consequent. That’s something I really miss in so many games and I often do not know if it is just because so much stuff get’s lost on the way due to date pressure or if the thoughts were never even made?
Anyhow if you really succeed in showing what a bunch of gifted guys like yourselfes can pull off when unleashed you might just change how this whole industry works.
And just to have it said again: As long as money running out does not become a problem I’d rather have you take your time to make your vision come true than haste to an end while throwing part of that vision overboard.
Brilliant! I think that the challenge and the risks this system brings will be conducive to much smarter gaming. There are too few games now days that challenge a player in that way, and I’m all the more excited about Star Citizen for this. I already figured as much when I pledged, but this just reinforces the confidence that my money is in good hands.
It’s an interesting concept; I love the idea. But I can see it now… dread pirate Roberts, slain on 06/06/86 by Sgt. Jigglypants909
Chris, you amaze me !
Sounds excellent, in Eve I’ve treated every podded death as the death of that character and marked the reason of demise (and possibly any noteworthy accomplishments) of that clone. This system sounds just excellent and will give some extra incentive
I started reading this article thinking “oh hell no” to myself, but by the end you had me convinced, sounds like a great way to handle it.
Stands up and claps at Chris’s direction and description.
Bravo.
I approve wholeheartedly. This description is what I was expecting from the snippets on the Forums. I have no problem with this at all and I also Applaud Chris for designing this mechanic!
Lesson learned, Trust Chris Roberts!
Finally something new to the mmo genre. I was getting worried already reading the forums past two months of people wanting this to be a fluffy place. Glad there will be price to pay.
I only wish I had more money to throw at Chris Roberts.
I love this idea
So at some point once i die i’ll have to rename myself Joe_Smith1234?
Please don’t say i won’t have to because at some point it will be hard to think of a new unique name and we will be forced to use numbers on the end.
Everything else sounds great and i’ll love seeing how you make it work but at this point my fear hasn’t been resolved, i want a better way then just think of a new one like that is so easy to do. I won’t be pledgeing anymore now and will consider selling off a few ships to lower my investment now.
I’m still glad to support this game but not as much as i was. Really need to think on this now
Feedback: Please Allow Players to always play the same character! Players should be able to regrow the body of their original character after (perma)death.
Watch 5th Element Body Reconstruction in the 23rd Century.
Not everyone wants to be forced to play a kin or new character. It’s all about Player’s Choice!
Battlestar Galactica’s Resurrection Ship for Human Cylon:
Upon the death of its body, a humanoid Cylon’s consciousness is automatically transferred into another copy of itself.
“I also feel that if everyone can be cloned easily, it fundamentally changes the structure of the universe. You now have a universe of immortal gods that can’t be killed. Death is just a financial and time inconvenience that has no further consequences. The life and death cycle of humanity is what has brought us our history, our need to “make a mark” in our time, to push forward. If I want a living, breathing universe that has a lot of the dynamics of a real world and is inspired by the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, immortality for all is problematic.”
It’s not so much a problem of, “can we make up tech to do this.” It’s that doing so would make it an entirely different world. CR says the same thing here I’ve seen people explain to you and others multiple times in chat.
If you want to keep the same character, invest in the things that will help prevent the loss of “lives” and buy back “lives” whenever you can.
And if you do lose the character, just make the new one look the same and give it the same name. Pretend it never happened.
Absolutely Awesome! Im even more excited to play now then before. Jesus, if I could only fastforward time to when this is done….
And I agree completely, I think this proposed death mechanic actually adds to the RP. Your story will have a beginning and an end. I already know what I will do if my character dies and passes his legacy to my son. Completely different people in my mind.
Awesome, love it.
@Galaxus
Those are exactly EVE 2.0
I wonder if our characters will be able to start with cybernetics? I’d like the option to work on a character in that way.
at last good ragequit penalty =^_^= (other things are sure great but i wouldn’t expect less from Chris)
After reading, I have no doubt the death system will work just fine. (For me at least.)
So would succession fees need to be paid by the beneficiary when wealth is transferred?
Someone asked about this kind of “inheritance tax” further up, and I say again: NO! NO! NO! There better not be!
In civilized space
What if ~~~
A pop B (and killed B), A get a heavy government bounty, then B or C or whoever kill A to get the bounty.
Repeat the process ~~~
Sounds great! I like the angle they’ve taken with this, seems fair and entertaining. Also puts to rest my one great fear of massive Player Killer griefing ruining the game. I can’t wait for this game!
Thanks Roberts Space Industries!!
I love this, don’t change a thing!
It would also make criminals think twice about shooting escape pods if there was a possibility of getting death sentence if caught: blow up an ejected pilot and either spend rest of your career in lawless systems or face the firing squad.
I totally trust Chris ever since the first Wing Commander and I find the overall design of death mechanics really well-thought.
A clarification is required however: Will a pilot that survived long enough retire / die out of old age? I believe it would add even more to realism.
I’m excited for this. Keep up the good work Chris
Love this concept, its never been detailed in this way before in a any game. Great new game mechanic and innovation from Chris
“the character that you are leveling up and customizing is really your spaceship. Your avatar is really just a visual representation of your in-game character”
So naming your ship should get unlocked after all the “Wing Commander” pledges get first dibs on names, so the reputation of the ship can outlive any one pilot. If you want to cascade down the pledge levels, nobody will get too grumpy.
Respectfully, the TWO things you build up in a game like this are your ship(s) and reputation amongst the playerbase. What if when you create a character you chose first name, last name, and call sign, and upon death the call sign is bequeathed to your beneficiary if they want it.
Will you accommodate multiple instances of the same name? If not, I foresee a real mess once 200,000 alpha/beta testers squat their first character names AND beneficiary names, then a million more jump on after launch. In a year everyone will have names like THX-1138. Darn! That name is already taken!
Also, will names created in the single player game be valid in the persistent universe? Or will you have to create a new character on the public server?
Don’t count on having a Unique name just aliases attached to your account, looking at this system for death tells me one other thing, 1 character slot.
Love the proposed system and all that it entails.
This is making me think of the Millennium Falcon, USS Enterprise, and Serenity.
Also I like the possibility of call sign being unique; would work well for friends lists and add slight consistency.
Good idea of the Callsign option – Make the next of Kin choose unique name but allow then to keep Daddies call sign if they wish – in honor of the fallen.
You are Bill Johnson – callsign: DeadPants – You die but your son, “David Johnson”, takes on the DeadPants name.
That way the “History books” wont be full of people called DeadPants. History says “Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves”, not “A-Dog busted those chains”
I am loving this…
Chris Roberts does not disappoint and we have long while to go.
As an EVE player I’m sure I will be killed a lot by the white nights of Star Citizen.
Can’t wait to meet you gents in space.
Cannibal Kane
Chris, why are you punishing the people who care about their characters with this mechanic? Griefers don’t care about their characters. What do they care if they get a huge bounty and are forced to make a new character once they die? They’re in it to dog-fight with people. To kill them.
So how is it fair that me, as a player who cares about his character, will be forced to pay credits in order to get more “lives”? What do griefers have to do? Absolutely nothing. They can fly around and kill people to their hearts content while I get to remake my character. Seems really fair.
As an EVE online fan and a Star Citizen backer, I feel the need to contribute towards the accuracy of this article.
EVE Online allows you to “save your” skills by keeping your clone up to date. Hence, by being “podded” i.e. character death, you don’t lose any skills (aka Skill Points).
The only exception to this is the “T3″ advanced strategic cruiser class, which is a caveat, where you do lose these subsystem skills.
That said, Star Citizen is looking fantastic, and it isn’t EVE (but it may turn out to be I hope!).
Awesome concept about player death, but I read all comments above and I didnt notice anyone (except Tiger Claw very short) having trouble with the uniqueness of major NPC’s. I have some questions about that.
“Major NPCs will be unique. And if they are in a place where they can be killed, they will be killed only once. Think of it as a very hard to win achievement that one player or group of players in the game will ever achieve.”
I think the first question we should ask ourselves is: why do other companies (MMO’s) use a system with quests where (even major) NPC’s keep spawning to be killed. There is a reason, and that reason is really simple: those companies want all players to have the satisfaction of killing the biggest/ baddest boss in the universe. They want ALL PLAYERS to experience the most challenging parts of the game. And I think there is a very good logic about it.
Quite a few years ago I played WoW where I finally (after countless tries) killed Onyxia (a really big and fierce dragon) with 40 people. For me this was a major event in my gaming history. It is still something I remember with passion. But truth be told: this dragon had already been killed hundreds (thousands) of times by other groups, but that didn’t make our effort less meaningful to ME. For me THAT is immersion: the chance to participate in the biggest and most meaningful events in the history of the game!
If some events can only be completed by one person, or one group of people where does that leave the rest of us. We are now already with over 100k space sim fans, of which I am just one of them. How big is my chance to particpate in the killing of this famous pirate? How big is my chance to find a wormhole? I would love to have the feeling that my presence in the Star Citizen universe matters, I want to feel immersion, I want to be part of the history of Star Citizen.
So I see a dillemma: in the MMO example above that major NPC (onyxia in my case) isn’t one of a kind and less special. But if there is only one of them, it leaves a lot of players empty handed. In the last case probably one big group of players will rack up every major NPC kill around.
So Star Citizens, what’s your opinion about this? How do you think this system should be handled?
And Chris, my post is only meant as positive feedback
I’m trusting it will all work out! Thanks for reading.
I think the whole point of having rare NPC’s and Events and Discoveries should mirror real life as closely as possible nearly impossible to achieve. I felt the opposite as you did with WOW when I ever I downed a rare boss or found a rare item it only stayed rare for a few weeks before everyone else completed the mission/quest/grind.I’m sure their will be enough repeatable bosses. but to have some unique items and bosses that don’t have to be end game level these could be any level would be great and add to the universe.
He also mentioned most major NPCs will have someone waiting in the wings to replace them, so you get a ‘respawn’ later on, but it feels different as the new boss might he inherited the old ship/organisation but may fly differently or fight harder. I think I prefer this. That means that after x amount of time has passed, someone else can kill named NPC Pete and get their name into the galactopedia as a unique entry detailing the life and death of a terror at their hands. Otherwise, the galactopedia would read NPC Pete killed by..and a few thousand names and dates that make no sense
Great concept Chris hope you stick to your guns on this I like it.
OMG… lots of work for a death mechanic… It sounds promising, but also subject to A LOT of tweaking and balancing to almost being impossible to acchive.. Its gonna take a lot of work to get it right so people wont find a hole in it to abuse it.
Well, this was a great read. I’m truly fascinated by this. I think of it as a challenge that will add a lot to my gaming experience. I just knew that Mr. Roberts would come up with something new and unique and cannot wait to hear more about his vision as it becomes mine as well more and more. I’m glad to be part of this.
Read it. This is the great middle thing I was looking for. No perma-death extremism. No 3-2-1 respawn either. Very solid proposal. But, it sounds like more work for you guys at Cloud Imperium. I mean, if you want to oh well .I would have been happy just getting respawned at the last station or planet I was. I thin kthe pain of losing your valuable cargo is already bad enough.
I think it should definitely have an effect on your reputation (ala inFamous 2) when you shoot at escape pods/choose to execute people, heck even downrank your citizenship. It is an ugly act considering that the person in the escape pod can’t do anything. I can see bounty hunters and pirates doing such things *spits in a bucket*
My mind is now clearly confident that Chris Roberts has got what it takes to make this game truly AAA+. The explanation given by Chris has wiped out any shadows of doubt that I had about him and the team. I agree with Chris that auto save should stop and that we need to take care of our characters and not act like Gods. This will make PvP more enjoyable and less frustrating as well, therefore it wouldn’t be like one of those mmo fps / where you need to play it 24 hrs a day to get good enough to survive some rounds and make the game playable if you know what I mean. I could go on and on but Chris’s write up is so self explanatory and deeply thoughtful that I am going to stop right here. Thanks Mr. Roberts and the rest of the team. I believe that if this level of thought will be given to every aspect of the game then the bar would be raised so high that it would not only leave huge publishers reeling but would not be beeten for many more years to come. Or until Chris Roberts decides to make another game after SC. Well done chaps
The system sounds great, looking forward to writing History. Two thumbs up!
Awesome stuff. Everything I read just makes me more excited. One small thing:
When you are captured it looks like the only option available at the moment is to pay your way out. This sounds like a little one dimensional and doesn’t add to the game. It might as well be a message that pops up and says “you got captured and had to pay x to get out”. To give the player some agency there should be some form of choice available here, like when you are caught in an Elder Scrolls game. If you were given the choice of either paying up to leave or fighting your way out, then that gives the player the choice of either getting out with no risk, but at financial cost, or to risk a life, but keep their money and earn reputation/acheivements/what have you.
The more choices the better, but I feel this would be the minimum necessary to make the capture mechanic worth putting in. Escape might include a hacking minigame to get out the cell, etc, the possibility of using some kind of stealth (a minimal application, like avoiding guards who follow a routine you can observe wouldn’t need too much additional coding, merely did the player get seen on their way to the exit or not).
Maybe getting captured could offer some fps opportunities, like easier access to a certain boss character not available any other way (bust out of jail and, while escaping take a wrong corner and come across the leader of the slavers or a head jailer, see Cassandra’s Tears, issue #8, where cal gets out of being thrown out of the airlock).
Have to say this turned me from a skeptic into a believer.
Every time I read your updates makes me thanks my past me for putting a lot of money and trust in your team Chris! I hope you deliver all the features you envisionned! That would be THE best game ever, no doubt!
I like this system a lot. Great thinking CR!
Great news and outstanding death mechanics. Now please, for the love of everything you just stated, don’t throw away all of that by allowing multiple characters.
I hope s, too. Multiple characters should only be possible, when the other races are becoming playable. But only 1 char per race.
I like the mechanics and couldn’t imagine a far better solution. And I trust in their skills to balance it! Great job from all guys involved!
I really like this thought process. great job CR
This is going to be an truly ground braking game if the rest of game dev follows the same quality of thought.
Seems it would be a game for hardcore players only… seems I made a mistake by making a pledge and grade it up… because there is a life beyond the persistent game universe with a job that leaves not to much time for gaming… I confess I use games to dream another life – not to be in the same way frustrated like in real life… I had hoped – for the singleplayer part – for solutions for weaker gamers too – like several difficulty levels…
As someone who watches trends as a newspaper editor I saw often: finacial success needs mass…
It would appear that the game is going up against all kinds of trends starting with its very inception. And despite that, it succeeds with a 7.5 mil budget from the fans. Talk about ‘mass’ when you know the difference – look no further than Elite: Dangerous.
Seeing how Star Citizen game is about to break new ground, why would you assume the game mechanics to be any different? Chris is not your average developer, he is a force to be reckoned with, not only in the games, but also movie industry. He has identified and explained in detail what makes and breaks the gaming business, which has stagnated for the last 10 years.
Many of us backed him not only because of his baby – Star Citizen – which is destined to change the whole business, but also because it is a game made by gamers for gamers. Chris already made a concession in terms of mortality and introduced ‘lives’ as he put it, which I think is much easier to deal with than a punishing hardcore mode.
Instead of buying the farm outright (which only happens under certain circumstances), you get the chance to cheat death and even come back stronger than before. If you didn’t realize this yet, then you may want to read the part again where he explains resets or expanding your life expectancy. Cheers.
I imagine for the Squadron 42 campaign CR could find an immersive way in character creation to specify a difficulty level since this is a skill based game and we don’t all have the same skill level. In the persistent world we can all define our skill level based on how we play and where we go. Don’t forget about the private server, where there could easily be user configurable difficulty settings.
Greaser, I see no reason for your despair – as it was mentioned, you’ll bail out most of the time, without a scratch. If it really happens to you, that you get “killed” (i.e. get a limb removed, body part severed etc.), you’ll still live. If you happen to actually die as a char, your belongings will be somehow transferred down to your successor and not too much harm is done.
If you’re still worried after all those explanations, you can still go play offline (where you certainly can adjust difficulty) or cooperatively on your own server with friends or simply chose a SC server which uses a rule set, where you can’t die.
How about when you crash into an ejected pod…? same effect?
It can happen by mistake especially in combat.
Believe it or not… Used to happen to me while playing other games, I even remember a mission form WC where I had to rescue a POD but crashed into it by mistake while trying to use the tractor beam it.
Other then that, I absolutely love everything in this post and I’m very excited about the game!
My first comment on the officila site and its just to say damm good concept. Nice work mr. Roberst and co
I am truly impressed, this sounds like the best possible way to deal with player death!
I’m impressed. I really like this idea.
It gives you a chance to start fresh when you get sick of your character, but doesn’t cost you anything (apart from a reputation shift, which could be a good thing).
After reading permadeath i still dont like idea “next of kin” my children taking over me and i play my descendants. Sory Chris this wouldnt enhance my immersive roleplay. I cant imagine myself to play in that role…
I would be more than happy if game would let you choose upon a start if you wanna have next of kin and if it wouldnt your body would slowly be replaced by cybernetics limbs, organs or they would clone you depends on the insurance.
For that price we could pay little higher price of insurance for recovery of our worn out body but would remain character we play as long as you wish. Later if someone wanna make fresh start they can choose to be perma death killed and replaced by whoever they want. This would be immersive and would be fair for those who care about their avatar not just ship. Please think about it.
the possibility to die should intensify a “rp-feeling”…shouldn’t it?
Sry not for me
I dont have problems to die, i got problems to act someoneelse character, next of kin, friend, brother, son, cousin or what ever.
If you don’t like the idea of descendants taking over, then you might consider naming (twin) brothers/sisters, aunts, uncles etc. as beneficiaries. There is a considerable degree of freedom to be had.
As I stated above I dont like to play what i am not. What if my whole family members who are also space sim lovers will play this game ?
So I dont fell comfortable that I play my son while my son is also playing himself, or that i play my relatives which are also active. Do you understand what i mean its not immersive to me. I rather think of myself when I will really die in IRL this will be also my perma death lol
Your story isn’t outrageous enough to convince me ;D
Heh, if you really want permadeath in your own definition, you’re free to sign off from the persistent world forever at your own discretion.
Joke aside; you could simply team up with all the others above who want to play the “immortal character” and play on their or your own server with no mortality.
I’m sure the majority of people will enjoy the CR death system. And unless you play it like a maniac, you’ll probably live almost forever that way and you’ll really have to provoke it and seek out death if you want to actually die in-game.
Love it.
KUDOS to CR and the gang! I’m looking forward to the game even more now.
-Irish
Just some additional thoughts made concrete in questions:
1. What will the ratio be between reallife time and game time?
2. Is a natural death possible akin to the original idea of the first Fable RPG where the char grows older?
3. Will there be any time dilatation?
Like mentioned before can’t wait to see more from the game.
2. Yeah I’d like to see age become a part of it. That’d really add to the lineage side of things! Of course it is largely dependant on game time…
1. Time in space is whatever you want it to be, so for all intents and purposes its real-time.
Of course planet-side time is relative…
I guess the real question is whether Earth time is real-time. I dont think thats really going to matter too much when most players are going to be in space.
Although if ageing is factored in its going to have a big impact on your character if in-game time is ten times real-time. Effectively putting a time limit on your characters availablity, which would either be annoying (because you cant relax if the clock is constantly ticking (even when you’re not playing)) or will add to the risk factor and/or addictiveness of the game because you’d want to do as much as you can before your life ends.
3. Would you want time dilation to factor in? Sure it’ll make the whole experience more realistic, which is ultimately what Chris is trying to achieve, but it’d make it somewhat confusing…
Great ideas though
Agree with you at 1. and haven’t thought of it as elaborated as you did.
To 3. I really have no idea maybe it would need a whole game centred around it. I just like the idea and how Joe Haldeman treated this topic ín his book “The Forever War” and it is in most SF-films a shortcoming not to mention games. Never the less it looks like we still live in our thoughts and acting in a Newtonian universe even if we should know it better by now.
What if the aging was done by time in game? That way you don’t have to worry about it when not playing; but the restriction and ticking clock is still there. You could even explain why certain people age faster than you (more time online/spent playing) through time dilation.
Dear Chris Roberts, this design is just excellent. Star Citizen will set new gaming standards. I am really excited!
This sounds freaking amazing.
I would hope that it is also possible to buy cybernetics without having to die first.
Buying a (fairly expensive) cybernetic eye with increased HUD elements (outlining hardpoints, engines, cockpit etc. for pinpoint targetting), or improved target aquisition would be top notch.
That would be awesome.
nice idea
that’s the best i’ve read about this topic anywhere in the whole web until now…thanks a lot for sharing your ideas with us chris.
How long will it take to tractor in an ally then? can I do it under fire?
now i truly believe that this game will become the best game I’ve ever played….can’t wait for playing it any longer….unfortunately it will last some time to get this dream of a game on my computer…
Unless it’s fairly easy and cheap to “buy more lives” and cheat death on a more or less permanent basis this is likely to have the opposite effect on me: I will see characters as disposable things and not bond with them, that if I even play in the online universe at all.
I guess, from the second character onward, I will just create names that mimic my first character’s name while mocking the death system.
Stay on your way and do it! I hope you get this done, what i ever wanted and imagined.
Brilliant Update.
I am particularly impressed with the overwhelmingly positive feedback here! For such a potentially controversial subject the response is out of this world. I think that goes to show – Chris has really taken the time to understand the intricacies of death in games.
This is an amazing idea! Instead of just having one character (and persona for RP purposes) you could now create family trees, tracing their achievements.
Brilliant!
All this seems very satisfying to me. I like it very much. It seems already very ambitious I think.
Got to say I am all for this mechanic as it has always felt cheap to respawn with no down side.
I love this news, was a little worried about the perma death thing, but this sounds a brilliant system, you say you don’t want to make a Eve 2.0 but the only difference I can see is just the scale of people involved in any system battles, and perhaps sovereignty over systems (which I’d love to see).
IMHO if you made Star Citizen with the above in, was still F2P & was the way you have already described then it would blow EveOnline which is your major competitor out of the water!
This all sounds very awesome. Just the sort of thing I’ve been looking for.
Mh… so what happens if our character does not have next of kin? And what happens if you are captured but cannot pay for your freedom?
Good basis, but certainly needs additional refinement.
(I can already see the blobs forming in the lawless systems to hunt lone players or at best small groups to minimize the risk of death to themselves. a.k.a. “Don’t attack if you don’t outnumber the enemy at least 10 to 1.”
>:-D
You will always have next of kin – you are your own next of kin.
As to the roaming bands lynching lone players – I think the idea is actually to make dying LESS scary – it’s still a risk but it’s not a massive risk since the chances of actually dying are slim, the effects of actually dying, whilst tangible are not a disadvantage in anyway and the cost of killing stranded pods is rather high. I think it’ll encourage people to maybe take a few more risks in fact.
*chuckles* I’m my own grandpa
. That’s what I first thought when I read “You are your own next of kin.” 
I am really exited about this! This is the perfect mix of rp and “zing” to spice up life!
Concerning picking up foes or allies that ejected I have a proposition.
Why not give the picked up player a choice? Yes, when you are picked up by enemies or allies etc. the proposed and stated effects would happen, but give the player that was picked up the choice of when this happens.
Say fore instance that I got shot down but my allies pick me up, now going back to a friendly station where I could get a new ship might take time etc, so give me the option of what I choose. If I would like to stay and fight on as crew for my ally or if I would like to hitch a “supply ship/ambulance back to the station.
Now you might say this negates the rescue/capture mechanic or the financial reward you might get. But this could easily be remedied by spawning a placeholder npc slave in case of a hostile capture and just directly being paid by the “ambulance” in case of rescue.
This would prevent griefing by being stuck in a players hold involuntarily for hours at an end.
Amazing post and idea, but should gear (space suits, personal shields, boarding weapons) be upgrades to your avatar and handled as ‘misc cargo’ that is not insured? If we have limited ship upgrade slots, I would imagine I would spend the slots on upgrading the actual ships characteristics, then buy and wear the better suit when I’m flying, and strap a gun to my waist and add anything that I need to survive on my person. I understand some systems will need to be ship bound, but at least items you can wear on your person need to be on your person (as, for example, the personal shield needs to keep running after your ship has been turned into a nice toasty fire ball). Also, how will this affect kamikaze actions? If ships explode and deal damage, will my ship kill me?
After reading the article I was so excited that I wanted to stand on the top floor of the parking garage and yell, “FINALLY!!! A death mechanic that makes sense AND increases immersion!” No more of this get killed and rematerialized indefinitely BS that we’ve all gotten used to. Seriously why hasn’t anyone else come up with this before? Chris R. is – a – genius! I can’t wait to start building a FAMILY legacy that can stretch for generations over the course of playing this game.
This is an awesome system, I see how the impact is substantial but not devastating, I would get attached to my character, and would hate to see him go, and will play accordingly. The focus of the game being to build up your ship, and having that pass on to your new character once you die sets things into a new light. It is less important to loose a character than it is to loose ships, modules, and credits that you have worked hard to build up.
This brings up a point regarding people who have destroyed an ejectee. I would argue that insurance companies would be not inclined to offer insurance to such a person, and revoke any policies that are in effect. (I apologize if this point has been made already, i searched this posting but didn’t quite see the point I am trying to make). To regain insurance, there could be fees, or service to the insuring company or state. Perhaps revoking insurance is not the way to go, maybe just making it terribly expensive? I don’t know.
To discourage friend-bountying, there could be monitor programs that watch your account that its been deposited to for transfers to the next of kin of the felon. (I know, maybe a little too big brotherish) I am not sure about this point, discouraging killing your buddy to collect rewards is a tricky point.
I think there is a leeway for this. First time may be an accident/ But reoccuring between the same two parties would be a cause for questions.
I think it’s a BOLD move from Chris Roberts ! And it’s Awesome
and i sure hope you will stick to your vision of the game cause that’s why i pledged in the first place: to play to a game made by someone i trust to enove, to make something new and immersive, to make it right to his vision in the end.
i love this new mechanic and i can’t wait to see it implemented !
i surelly am glad to be part of the great adventure with you guys
Very excited for this mechanic….I actually enjoy this option.
I love it so far. A few items to think about:
1. If there is no loss of stored items for escape pod killers upon death then all that will happen with griefers is they will go till they die, start as their next of kin and transfer all their assets to a new character (no rep/etc).
Also with bounties, if a large enough one builds up, they will have a friend kill them, do the above and then split the bounty. This happens a lot in EVE, any bounty set on a character can almost be guaranteed to be claimed by the person in question or one of his corpmates.
To solve both, I would propose that any UAEE bounty paid upon death should come out of the assets of the wrongdoer [this is an extremely realistic thing to do, think police asset seizures]. So what would happen is someone with a sufficiently large bounty if killed would have to start over from scratch again and not be able to rely on the accumulated wealth of lifetimes. They would still keep their pledge ships of course but everything else would be up for grabs.
2. The escape pod capture mechanic seems to have some warning flags in my mind. Specifically what is to keep someone from tractoring in your escape pod and just holding onto your unconscious body. I.E. not rescuing and not selling it into slavery… doing nothing with it. Basically denying you the ability to play the game.
“You can’t have light with dark and you can’t have reward without risk.”
+1 I’m a man not a kid, i like this idea.
I posted awhile back this idea! I am happy they have this as an idea for the game now.
This got me thinking if you could, during gameplay, make friends or make a family with other species and then make the alien your beneficiary…
I like this , just the escape pod could be used as a shield in battle or tatically if being someone is on your six.
I loved the “Princess Bride” references. I do hope to hear about a “Dread Pirate Wesley” somewhere in the game!
Finally, a death mechanism that makes sense in a Persitant World MMO. I also enjoyed how he says that people who try to play the system will have to deal with consequences. Looks like bounty hunters will have good business.
I am amused with all the references to the Princess Bride like the “Dread Pirate Roberts”. I laughed a lot in that movie and also like using the Inigo Montoya line – “Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.”
Great to see how well thought out these various immersion details are being handled. Thank you for keeping it real to a point and not punishing the player too harshly when trying to take risks.
best mechanic ever
Nice mechanic, we will se how it works with griefers who doesn’t care about his character anyway.
Love it! Can´t come up with a better way to deal with it than this!
I regret my financial particitation now. I will never play to Star Citizens now you made this choice of perma death. I hate DemonsSoul’s like game.
So sad.
Love the idea. It’s really nice to see the possibility of continuity with an offspring or someone “related”.
Can’t wait to play this game….
I also want to say above all, thank you for this article. I think we would all love to see more articles like this hearing your thoughts on things like this… with less of the drama leading up to them
So, thank you for sharing your thoughts and vision.
Here some questions after having read this article.
1) Is character will get old?
2) Is our beneficiary, once dead, will have the same character shape, skin color, hairs, and eyes colors?
3) It will be possible to change character shape after the “real” death?
4) If online cosmetic shop it is. And if I buy for example a tattoo that I apply on my first character. Guess this avatar die, I continue with my beneficiary character, do I get back this tattoo or will I have to pay again 5$ into the shop to get a same new tattoo?
5) I kill a pilot into his capsule, I got an heavy bounty from the UEE on the head. I have a second account, I us it to kill my first character and get the bounty, then is transfer those credits to my main avatar. As it is possible to do it, do you accept this kind of rules, or if you don’t accept this kind of way, how will you discern the behavior and how will you apply severity?
6) In game, one year is equal to what duration in real life?
7) UEE protection, can you talk about more. Is that mean that if am attacked, UEE ship will come to my rescues?
8) Is player could be bank agent or insurance agent? If yes, will you set in game contract to rules those kind of trades activity’s?
9) Does the FPS party will be limited to the boarding ship, or will we have FPS mission by taking a space station, planetary installation?
10) Still about FPS, in public area, is a player could just take his weapon and freely shout around?
11) You talk about space simulator for train space ability. Do you plan a similar FPS simulator to train boarding ability?
12) So, you told that we can keep alive his main character in earning more life by doing missions or by buying science technologies from NPC. But, you say that death is not into the background of the game. So, how maximum year an avatar can expect to live?
13) You say that we could see funerals from the eyes of our beneficiary. But regarding the question 12, if I want to keep my main character and doing mission or buying new life, how will I do? Will I have to make those missions with my beneficiary and revive my main character one I have earns those new life?
14) Regarding unique NPC, first places found. If there several player killing this unique NPC or finding the same place at same time, the title is shared or only one guy get it ? And about loot (if unique npc drop loots), how loots will be shared?
15) Will we see unique NPC in FPS fight, or it is only reserved for space dogefight?
16) Players spending 15 hours per day into the games against those who spend 2h will be necessary the first to kill the unique npc or discover places. The casual gamer so, will be consider as second zone players or does they will have to end their job to get the chance to get an in game title and being part of the Star Citizen history ?
17) Will we see high title for discovering a new planet, player space/planetary station founding by a single / group players?
18) Is player could create their own med center, working on Scientifics programs to finaly sells other player news life, eyes, biological / cybernetic arms?
19) For the FPS mission, is our character will see equipment as shield, helmet to reduce for example the matter of the “head shot”?
20) Do you plan any space hospital ship with med center in it?
21) Regarding unfair game as losing a ship because of a losing internet connection, or being killed by a grieffer. Do you plan any way to resolve those kinds of unfair games?
22) Its look like that the boarding ship for attacker is like a first try luck because of the head shot end assault. What do you plan to balance the attackers vs. defenders?
23) You talk about the possibility to lose an arm or eyes during a boarding assault. For example am hit by a laser in the arm wearing my gun. Will I be allowed to keep using my gun, or will I have to retreat, surrender or just let them killing me?
24) There are good luck that grieffers groups or organization settle in Star Citizen to provoke RSI team and your system. By the way, gamers will suffer of this organization. How single player could keep fun and hide those kinds of associations?
25) Will you have in game tool to report grieffers?
26) You explain that it will be possible to capture a pirate, grieffer and escort him till the jail. Do you plain to give player tribunals the choice of the result of a grieffer for exemple?
27) You says that it will have automatic systems in ship. So can you tell if macro will be allowed in game?
28) How will you unhallowed the escape of a prisoner during his escort to the jail center?
29) A prisoner or slave could use hand / foot or even steal a waypon into the ship and taking hostage the pilot or forcing him to drop it on the closers planet?
30) The fact that you talk about a slaving system doesn’t pose you any ethic matter? Is a slave, will be able for example to get liberty with out to pay to get his liberty?
Thank you
Am having no problem with the ‘perma-death’ and getting another character once in a while. Since this only gives you some rep loss + a possibility to chance your style a bit. It’s a good to me.
I am (also) wondering about die-ing of old age, and would like to suggest a ‘normal-lifespan’. For this reason; say I am a crazy fighter pilot and a dogfighting all day any day; so I might loose my lifes in 1 year playing SC.
But if I were a trader, and a pusssy, theoretically I could avoid every battle, and play the same character for 10 (real) years…
Now I guess ‘time moves faster’ in SC. If that be the case, especially, I would very much like a maximum lifespawn -> so pilots will die of old age, if they do not die in battle. Plus I’m all for crazy deceases and such, or getting annihalated by a super nova. Why not!
Please Lamp God let me get my legs blown off so I can have ROBOT LEGS!!!!!
Well, all I can say… Awesome! I really look forward to trying this out. I have no problems with any of these ideas. If I do have a question about some sort of balancing issue, I will refer to rule #1.
Rule #1 – Trust Chris and CIG…
awesome idea !! sounds greats !! thanks !!!!
i really like this,want to have some parts now!and to be remembered forever
damn no edit…would say “some robotic parts” i already have parts
Well once again RL beats us out, as human tissue can now be printed…
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/02/06/3d-printed-human-embryonic-stem-cells/
I like what I am reading
Amazing. I was game for whatever you had in store for us, but this is really something special. Chris Roberts is *our* STAR Citizen.
best idea ever honestly. literally no suggestions form me.
One question I have that I didn’t see in the above:
Will our beneficiary become our new character/avatar when our current character is finally 100% dead — and will we have a chance to customize the looks, height/weight, etc. of that new character before begining their adventuring in the SC universe?
i can’t see another way that works well apart the one you wrote
Finally a game that is willing to do something new!!! Every time I think it can`t get better CR comes out with something that makes the game sound even better.
I was not clear some points. The person you specify as your beneficiary when you finally die is who your next character will be? Sounds like they get everything that is left and you start again with the same basic stuff your last character had.
For the record I totally trust CR on this and he has not let me down. I can`t wait to see how this all works out in the final game.
A single word: AWESOME!
Chris gives life to our dreams…
can’t say anything else then that i can’t wait!
“I do listen and when I think something makes sense, I fold it into my thinking as long as it is compatible with the vision I am trying to achieve. But this won’t happen in all cases, so please keep an open mind and wait until you have a chance to play Star Citizen.”
AMEn Br0tha!
I didnt pay to have forum trolls designing my game. Use official channels for determining interest in things. You said “Wing Commander” style play and i’ll hold you to it!
Cheers.
Amazing, I can’t hardly wait for the beta!
I was wondering (hehehe, we’re all wondering a lot of stuff about this game), if I’m fighting someone (PvP/ PvE Star Citizen or PvE Squadron 42) and they eject. What can I do with them if I tractor them in? Can I be the benevolent capture and just drop them off at the nearest planet (we don’t have to be mean to our foes, do we?), or will the game automatically make you drop them off at a prison/ slaver?
It will not be much fun for the other person if they have to sit your cargo area in a box for more than 30 seconds.
I’d hope that the capture doesn’t last much longer than the “rescue” if you just ejected and weren’t captured.
Well this made the most reply list.
If Chris or any other dev reads this,this is not what I was hoping for but it is absolutly brilliant,and well thought out,it only backs up my “trust in Chris”
I can and will adjust my view and will most assuredly continue to back/lookfoward to this game.
But really is there going to be room for my towel and galactipidia in the escape pod? Thatbisnthe real question.
Very late in replying to this already long thread, but I just want to add that I think the way Chris has described sounds very good. I think that it adds a level of “take care of your character” that not many games have.
Well done Chris and I have faith in you and your teams choices.
So ships will have safety features that will actually be relevant to players, that’s awesome. Player may opt for a ship that isn’t as fast or powerful just because it’s safer than the others… It also makes for more realistic-looking ship brochures!
Great news! I would like to have wallpaper of that pic over the topic ^^
The concept sounds great! Surely balancing and avoiding “mean” players to grief others, will need some work but that must not be done from today to tomorrow, that can be tested. The idea of replacing pilots that were tractored in by NPC or even when tractoring in a NPC and then inviting him into the crew (would stay on ship) to help mann your ship sounds also interesting, hehe, players flying a carrier manned with NPC crew? It would enhance by giving you room to either fly with friends in a big ship or on your own just with NPC crew….I am looking forward, how this will be! Myself got lazy saving too often in certain games….no risk no fun!
This is great. I’m liking these ideas a lot. Thanks for the detailed update.
Awesome! I liked this Idea.
It is impossible to do a system that everyone likes but I think this system covers most people wishes in one way or another.
At least compared to other games it has a lot more depth.
Chapeau! Read it and tipped my helmet in respect.
It’s these details that make me feel right about believing your vision and great that we’re able to attend the actual development. Keep up the good work, you’re on the right track!
Greetings,
Just an idea take it, toss it or laugh at it but thanks for listening to it *Hops off Chris’s knee*
Looking this over I personally feel that at this point in its concept this is truly a wonderful shade of gray between dark and light. You will always have those on one extreme side that never want death and others that want the thrill of impending doom around every corner…those that enjoy the known and those that want the extreme…the snowboarder who wants the gentle predictable slope and the extreme snowboarder that wants the “I could break my neck if I make one mistake” slope. In any group, democracy or mass of people you will have these extremes. Chris and team, you have done very well at working to find a little something for everyone here. RPers can work around it, casual players can go either way with it and PvPers can have a purpose. I find that PvP for me personally never really held much a desire, but the thought of PvPing for a cause…to save a friend, squadron mate or that trader who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time appeals to me greatly and would really force me to do what is “Right” and blow that stinking pirate, scoundrel, griefer or scum back into the stardust from wince he came. I see it creating for the scum, pirate, griefer and scoundrel a “Real’ feeling of being “Infamous”. Me personally if I was flying and suddenly saw a player pirate who literally had gained his infamous reputation in the player community, first I would likely run for a change of pants and then steel myself for the fight of my life…and if I was taken out by him/her would I be mad? Sure…but I would also be immersed, because that was ACTUALLY that pirate and I fought them…sure I lost but wow…I fought them…I mean on the high seas of the 17th century those that fought Black Beard…Captain Kidd…what a story they could tell of their heroic fight against that pirate if they lived. That is how legends are born…good and bad ones.
As for the griefer…well in our world they exist…done. What kid did not go to school and see the school bully picking on the kids in the play ground…I personally will never understand the pleasure they derive from it but as much as I love helping people and the pleasure that gives me there are those that get their kicks from the grief and sorrow of others. All you can hope to do is put in a good set of checks and balances and really hope that the playground monitors (i.e. Chris and his crew) are there and really care. Personally the idea of the griefer’s insurance premiums going through the roof every time we vaporize them into sub atomic particles of pure happiness seems like the best idea I have heard so far…nothing motivates a human like greed and wealth and nothing is more of a deterrent then losing said wealth.
Now onto accidently running your friend over after he ejected or that 1 in 1000 chance that you’re a mile away from some guy who ejected and your particle cannon shot just happened to strafe across the stars and pop the unlucky space jock into a fine red mist? Well a simple pop up for the person that got fried could work. It would say who did it and if they wish to report them to the authorities. Something I would love to see is this…and boy is this asking a lot but since Santa Chris seems to know how to deliver why the heck not ask…*Sits on Chris’s knee* Since there is a government in the game…and governments have courts…I would love to see actual court hearings…If you commit a crime you get a pop up saying do you wish to turn yourself in Yes or No. If you say yes you go to court and other random players in game get a message on their screen saying they have been selected for jury duty would they like to participate? If the criminal says no then they keep going on their crime spree until they are captured. Now if they said yes or get captured then they go into a forum where the plaintiff (Guy run over or shot) is there with the defendant (Guy who smooshed the plaintiff into goo) get to have their say. Now maybe the plaintiff says…no it was friendly fire and it was all an accident your honor….but a system where you are judged by your peers would be amazing in my opinion. Now I am not talking about anything that would have to do with the terms of agreement for the game or breach of contracts…but something were players could have verdicts over in game dynamics…you capture the pirate and he is judged before his peers and the jury is given a set of options to decide depending on the crime…1000 cred fine…loss of property…or…DEATH.
Now will there be someone on the Jury that will just say DEATH! Of course but have 12 jurors and have them discuss and I am sure not all will agree or just say death for the sake of death. An example would be, here is the Dread Pirate Roberts…he has 25 confirmed acts of murder 16 acts of piracy. Let’s hear his plea and then decide…guilty or not guilty make the choice. Then pick the punishment…this may be to elaborate but heck if I have to sit in a cargo bay as a possible slave hoping I have the money or my friends do to get me out then I would love to see the scum of the universe have to go through the justice system to inconvenience them and have their fellow players judge them
Anyways, I think that you have really created a system that truly takes all aspects into account and are really working hard to find a “something for everyone” way of doing it. Keep up the incredible work and never lose that people, community, art and culture first over the corporate greed and bottle line attitude. All of us need more of you out there.
Daniel
Michigan
Will NPC ships and pilots automatically ignore spaced players’ pilots and escape pods, or are we going to have to worry about them gunning for us like an opposing player could?
There is so much awesome info in here…Chris has such a great vision. I like his ideas about heredity and legacy and continuation…can’t wait to walk into that bathroom.
omg I really really love this vision of death mechanics chris shared here. I think it’s a bold approach but it would add so much to the suspension and authenticity of the universe.
I always felt the same with games that let you save every 2 seconds and I had the same feelings of success and pride when I completed a difficult “no-save” mission in a game a long time ago.
btw i also love the new player experience chris portrayed, sounds very unique and “in-fiction”.
I have to say, I’m a fan of all of these systems. This is looking more and more like a “living universe” that I can spend months or even years in. I am so glad I supported this. In fact, I may go pick up a fighter now, in addition to my Freelancer.
I’m very disappointed to read this post. Chris, you seem to be underestimating two major components of persistent world game players on the Internet;
a) The unbelievable risk aversion of the average player.
b) The lengths that some people will go to in order to inflict grief on others.
Coming from EVE Online, players will go to amazing, extraordinary amounts of effort and expense in order to hurt others. Even the threat of death penalties on their characters is meaningless, since they’ll just roll a new character, transfer the lifetime insurance on whatever ship they bought to that character, and go straight back to the starting area and make with the carnage. Repeatedly. Perma-death and always-on PVP do not mix well on the Internet.
Also, most of the population is incredibly risk averse. They would rather not play rather than take even the tiniest risk – irrespective of the rewards offered for the risk. The risk/reward calculation doesn’t enter into the equation here – to those people any risk at all is unacceptable.
Having even the tiniest risk of permanent death or dismemberment will mean many of those people will either not play the game, or will not engage in combat.
By all means, have combat with penalties – that’s good. In EVE, there is no permanent death, but there is a financial loss if you die. Trust me, even that risk of financial loss gets the blood pumping quite fiercely in a pitched battle. The risk of permanent death is unnecessary to generate that effect.
I can see no good coming from such a plan.
what kind of pathetic loser are you expecting to be playing this game?
the type of person you describe will be the barest sliver of a minority… and wont have any fun playing the game… so who cares?
most of us ill be out playing the game to its limits
I think you misunderstand the system CR has thought out to be too easily exploitable:
“…since they’ll just roll a new character…” – njet; as far I can tell from the text above, you can’t just die like you want. If you really want a new character instantly, you’ll need to get (buy) a new game/account.
I see what you mean with the risk. There will be sectors with different risk factors and time will show how much risk people are willing to take. As CR elaborated, as you can eject or even if you get “hit” once, you don’t instantly die, actual death isn’t something that should concern you.
Indeed, losing your ship with all your options (even more so, if the latter are not insured) is probably the bigger fear. If it’s really gonna be the case that you’ll be griefed, the very minute you’ll leave the safe zone, that might be problematic, but I’m sure there will be balance mechanisms, like bold military/police patrols, which can put up with ANY player organized threat, if necessary or something.
Don’t worry now, see first.
Thank you for this post. ‘Twas very informative and personally I can’t wait to test it
I wasnt expecting such accurate information so early…. love it.. just lets try it and see if it works as intended!!!!
I really like where this is going… Bravo Chris!
The only thing remotely disappointing is that with all of The Princess Bride references the line… “almost dead avatar”
Should have been “mostly dead avatar”.
I am So excited about the prospect of saving or capturing allies or enemies escape pods! Makes the game feel so much more realistic and immersive. My question is, if I was a pirate and I was captured and brought onboard an enemy ship, it sounds like I’ll be fully in control of my captured character. SO is it possible to escape the ship before being brought to a prison planet? Or what if my captor decides to run around the universe and pick up some space milk? Will I be left waiting? Doesn’t matter much to me because this system sounds so fun… even if I’m the one captured. Also, is it possible to accidently shoot an ejecting pilot right when he ejects? Or will it be invulnerable for a few secs to prevent such accidental shootings? Or a small shield?
Chris, this is looking and sounding VERY good indeed. Yes, you’ve definitely got my trust. I’m sure the experience will be nothing less than superlative.
LOVE THIS! Anything that increasing the “realism” of death while also reducing the rewards for griefing is good in my book. I’ve always hated how lightly most games treat “murder”. Law enforcement in EVE Online (and most games) is a joke. In a realistic situation, there are very REAL consequences to murdering people (expect to be chased by the cops for the rest of your life). Yet in games it is just assumed that there are few consequences to your actions. I’m not a carebear by any means. Making a system that encourages “intelligent” consequences seems like the right direction to me. Rewarding pirates for playing the “noble bandit” (theft without murder for example) seems like a good way to balance this. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, RSI!
Now this a well thought out death system, and i can see that there will be rescue squads watching battles to rescue pilots for the creds. Chris, you sure are making it harder to play any other game in 2014
I think that an option should be on the list of “[x] charity,” in case you want to start a whole new legacy, or run a character who is a true ‘lone wolf,’ at which point you’ll start fresh (having to complete the story line again for it’s benefits). This could be an option for player’s seeking a more ‘hardcore’ game experience, while allowing those who want to use the system to use it. Both paths are plausible and don’t interfere with each other.
This seems like a very promising death mechanic incorporating a lot of the expectations of hard core gamers and balancing it with casual gamers. Chris’s attention to curbing griefers is appreciated and speaks to him as a gamer, standard company executives could care less about these sort of details. The earned scars and implants was inspired. I expected to see this anyway but as part of character creation not as actual signs of the player’s battles. Very creative. The prospect of your character dying permanently derfinitiely adds much needed tension to a game. I’d imagine people playing it very safe as they get closer to their max death count. I also foresee people desperately seeking stem cell doctors and such to add extend their life cycle when they are on their last lives. It creates a whole new line of quests just to make sure your charcater does not die permanently. Nothing like self preservation to make a game truly interesting. I would like some clarification on accidental death scenarios other people have posted on this thread. I think that is a valid concern. I also would like clarification on what happens once we tractor in an ejected enemy pilot. I’m interested in bounty hunting so I like that this area was addressed but there will be obviously an issue with having a character in your cargo hold for a lengthy period of time. Will there be a limited amount of time you can take them to the cops and collect your bounty or sell them off to slavery? Itwould just make sense that there would. Great update. Like everything else it was well thought out.
i love the sense of loss this can give without really losing anything if this system is implemented as you write then i will be one happy camper.
And this is why I backed Chris……….this info just made my day, games are entertainment that take us out of reality, but the idea that the time i’m investing in my avatar/character in the star citizen universe now can feel like a Mass Effect playthrough…..
I mean to be able to die or do something that alters the universe……instant sign up for me
soooooo excited for this game O_O
Was waiting for this! I need fear the void no longer!
I’m not sure if this line of thinking — “let’s take some real world process and try to map it as closely as possible to a game” — will lead to a great gaming experience. Quite on the contrary is my expectation.
First, most people posting here seem to think that they are on the winner side of a dogfight. Well folks, face it, 50% of you are going to loose a dogfight. In Mr. Roberts concept, when you loose a dogfight, not only do you loose some money and equipment, but there are additional penalties like slavery and death of your character. This concept seems all about punishing the looser of a dogfight. Which will happen to 50% of all dogfighters every time.
Why punish the looser so much? How can dogfighting be fun if loosing a dogfight can have so dire consequences?
Second, when I die in a game, I don’t want to wait for a long time until some vessel picks me up or I’m treated as a slave or whatever idea you’ve got. When I die in a game I want to respawn instantly. I’m fine with loosing ship/credits/cargo – that’s enough risk. But any delay between death and respawn punishes the looser of a dogfight even more. And there is no value in waiting while you as the looser of a dogfight are delivered somewhere where you may pay additional fines to finally respawn. Really, do you want to play a game where the respawn time depends on the social skills of someone else?
Mr. Roberts, please think less about punishing the player (your paying customers) and more about making dogfighting as much fun as possible with really acceptable risk (for me, loosing some credits due to equipment repurchase is fine as long as this will be in the range of 1-2% of the usual player wealth.). Basically if I like to make ten dogfights after each other just for fun, why should does punishing system put additional risk on me? All I wanna do is have some fun. I would happily accept a dogfight challenge from any stranger if I would know that the consequences are really neglectible. But in your concept, you try to push all the fun out of it!
One additional remark: Personally, I would consider myself a casual gamer. Mainly because I don’t have so much time to play games for hours and hours. A game like SC will depend a lot on your joystick skills — equipment might help, but I assume that even the best equipped rookie will loose badly against a good dogfighter in the most basic ship. So within a few month all casual players will be easy prey for the 24/7 gaming kids.
Which will lead to SC sucks for casual players because PvP is always on and you have no chance to really play the game in a more RP oriented style.
So I would like to see the PvP as an opt in. Or at least make it as an opt in for most sectors of the game and mandatory for a few selected sectors. So casual players can choose their flight path accordingly.
(And to anybody who thinks, I did not read the part that you do only loose add-ons/cargo if you eject before your vessel blows up: That’s fine but I really liked the game during it’s funding phase because of the space dogfighting. I don’t want to play a game of risk management where I need to gather the right equipment and the right places to keep my characters as long a possible! That’s not my idea of fun.)
I thought that Chris mentioned some kind of PVP-slider allowing you to customize your experience to be more or less PVP oriented, or did that change?
It’s also been mentioned that you can dogfight in simulations. That’s pretty much risk free?
Your assumptions are based on the fact that most people that will lose their ships will also get their character killed. That might be the case if Chris and company didn’t have any sanctions against people killing others, something that Chris had mentioned that they will have.
You’re also making the point that Chris is punishing his “paying customers”. Well, so are we all and it would appear that there’s a lot of his “paying customers” who like this mechanic. You’re implying that chris has forgot that the people supporting this game are paying from it. I believe that your assumption is flawed here as well.
Enough Fanboyism from me. It’s just that i think you’re reacting based on invalid assumptions.
i think the delay is to help with an issue Freelancer had, in which a player could attack another, get blown up, then respawn and assault the other player before they had a chance to get back to a planet/station to repair from the original fight. even in a ‘starter’ ship, you can continue to spam the limping player and take them out. this could be the difference between a hard-earned victory for the limping player, and a rage quit.
If it is ‘punishing’ for the player, they will most likely hash it out in the beta.
You are forgeting about player killers penaltys and slavery included. They will recieve bountys(high ones), lose protection in more civilized sectors. So you can get were im going. they will be discouraged to try and kill or enslave a pilot as they will attrack a lot of attention from those who will be hunting for good money.
play Moonbreaker then. insta respawn casual heaven
*Mal*
Trust in Chris. Trust in the developers. while you bring up valid points about having to wait to be scooped up etc. I’m sure that if you yourself can come up with ways to make it work then I guarantee the developers and Chris (The Professionals) will have a way to make it enjoyable; so that your not stuck there for hours. Obviously that wouldn’t be fun. Instead of saying “this isn’t going to work this wont be fun” etc. why don’t we ask the questions “How will the mechanic work for waiting if there is even a wait time. It’s probably too early to get that answer right now and by the the the game has been balance all will be well so stop stressing.
I wonder how this works with trying to navigate a new jump point
This was my question as well.
I’m assuming that a character who dies navigating a new jump point or exploring an uncharted system is just DEAD, but…
It would be nice to know for sure, since that is probably one of the activities I will be spending the most time on. At least until I get to name a system or two.
I just want to have some idea how many characters I will be burning through in the process.
Ditto… probably the wrong forum; but it almost sounds like jump points will be fixed locations and limited. What’s wrong with jumping in short of a target and finishing the last leg under normal propulsion. Having fixed jump points just make ambush and potential grieving easier.
I really like Chris’s concept of death. It feels exiting, fresh and adds to the immersion.
Please be careful of griefing mechanics, like pirate griefers killing themselves to lose rep. A griefer with a bad rep will probably need to kill themselves a couple of times in a row to lose enough rep to stay in high-sec and fool newbies etc. To counter this i imagine there should be some kind of punishment (preceeded by a warning) when you’ve killed yourself x amount of times during y time. I’m purely talking about misuse here, not about some random dude having a unlucky fluke being killed 2 days in a row.
Yeah, good point on grievers helping eachother “dying” as a way for griefers to raise (not lower) reputation. But I think that might be not viable enough, because the bad rep also sticks to the new char to a great degree.
Also, I guess these kinda quick “deaths” which lead into a new character (successor) creation will be flagged for admins to investigate.
I just hope you guys actually deliver on these great promises. So many have promised a game for gamers, and nobody has delivered. Can’t wait for you guys to deliver and teach them how to do it.:)
I really like the sound of this. This is the type of thing I’ve been looking for! Can’t wait to see it implemented.
Chris,
You got my vote.
Go with your vision. No matter what everyone says in the forums, pretty much everyone will follow you.
Thanks for daring to be different.
Torrn
Love this idea so far. Completely different take than most games. Continuity is the key to immersion, if an NPC just re-spawns it really takes away from the victory knowing that character is just going to be back later, I mean whats the point of killing an NPC or completing it if it has no absolutely no affect on the world?
I like where this concept is going.
Very nice.. this concept sounds great!
You go team! Cheers Mr. Roberts
Chris,
Please remember you are making a game. Immersion and realism are wonderful and should be encouraged, but you must carefully balance them with fun. I’m excited to see where you take us with this idea.
This looks awesome. I really like the idea of passing on your accomplishments through generations. This lets you play different characters and personalities without having to start over from scratch. What I would suggest though is allowing players the option to “save” what a character looks like; the various hair color, facial features, ect picked. This would let people that don’t really want to change their character keep the appearance the same; they can even have the name be the same (maybe the guy’s a jr or 3rd) giving them the illusion of keeping the same person. The ability to save would also give people doing family lines the ability to open it and then modify it slightly; after all a son would share some of his traits/appearance with his father (also letting people keep it accurate if they forget things about the predecessor’s appearance). {On an offhand note, it’d be cool if there was an ability to meld two appearances together; basically see what would happen if two people had a kid, like if you went father, mother, child in characters or something. }
I’m really looking forward to is the changing world with unique npcs. That was always something that annoyed me about mmos; the world never changed based on your actions. “oh you saved us from X” meanwhile you still see the enemy there attacking them and such.
Also if I remember correctly, PVP combat will be semi randomized; pitting players of similar skill level against each other. Meaning that griefers won’t be able to repeatedly hit noobs in the first place regardless of death penalty.
oh, 2 more comments.
1. Will there be the ability to “retire” if you want to switch to a new character/avatar before you’ve run through all your lives. Say you had a respectable merchant that amassed a fortune traveling in safe space; and now you want to play his reckless son who spends it all to turn to piracy or bounty hunting?
2. How will aging work if it exists, and how will you balance it between casual and more intense players. If it’s based in real time you run into the issue of casual gamers who might only log on for a few hours each week, or the person that ends up having to take a break from the game for a while coming back to a character that is now really old with nothing accomplished. If you go with in game time; it would be more accurate/immersive to the individual; but lead to the possibility of one character living through several generations of another player’s characters.
Retiring a character in order to easily build another will probably make it too easy to circumvent in-game penalties and play into the hands those who seek to exploit the game (e.g. grievers).
Yes- if multiple characters are allowed, it will be exploited without some significant penalties. Let’s take your example a step further. Say the ‘son’ has a beef with Dad and decided to pirate his ‘Fathers’ convoy… you log out as ‘Father’ during a group mission/objective with others that you are providing protection for… and immediately log in as the pirate Son… to take advantage of the now helpless convoy you abandoned. How do you avoid this… if you can have multiple characters?
Finally. FINALLY!
I cant believe it! Finally there is a game, and a developer that understands the importance of risk, death and how it relates to the sence of accomplishment and fun. Not only that, but they have created a system that reduces grieving and dosetn put you off if you loose your character.
Its a genious thing, and I feel confident this game will be worth every penny, compared to the new facebook-games other firms beleive in, like Firaxis X-Com and Maxis/EA SimCity
SimCity gona fail with always-online DRM..and with EA’s policy of microtransactions. I mean just look they obviouvly leave stuff out of game and sell them as DLC.
Love this concept, simply amazing
Alright, this thought just came to me. Can a ship that’s been boarded be blown apart while a boarding party is involved in a melee? If it can, is the consequence then a multiple permadeath for all those on board the blasted ship? Surely, all on board would be incinerated by the explosion?
Wow, very interesting. I actually like the concepts I am seeing here. Often in MMOs where I know I will come back I play it as if my character thinks he’ll die for good eventually. They never trust whatever mechanism keeps them ticking to always do so. So this actually lines up with how I generally RP the systems to instill a sense of caution into my characters. As an RPer I will say that I do not see that as detrimental to my character at all. In fact in the RP community it’ll build a sense of history, drama, gain and loss for folks to deal with and RP through. Having a funeral is even cooler, though I know it’s a cut scene. Still having player made funerals or the reception that often happens afterwards, folks consoling the next of kin, recounting tales and stories they shared. Wow. Talk about immersive. It’s also very innovative. Folks will take risks that they wouldn’t normally if there is a cost, because there isn’t one really. Here is a player decides to take that same risk, how much more epic if successful, but if failed how interesting. Again..stories of their willingness to sacrifice themselves to help someone or whatever.
I think it might also help with the issue of mindless player killing. That will still happen, but if there is a risk to dying for good yourself then the PK will be more cautious. The mechanisms set in to punish players severely for killing new pilots, while not helping the new dead pilot, also helps or should help alleviate people choosing to PK for no reason. PKing for faction issues, story issues, bounties and such are one thing. They fit the world. As an RPer I have no issue with PvP, I just want it to have meaning and purpose to the story. That way at least if I die I can still look at it as part of the story.
So really like it. This about boarding, having crew, etc..how awesome. I can imagine two different scenarios. The space trader having to hire guards/mercenaries to protect his slower ship, and perhaps having other support ships or having to work in convoys with fighter escorts. Wow, it opens up a whole new “economy”. Guilds or whatever they will be called in this game revolved around supply combat support to the trading types, etc. At the same time perhaps building out a fleet that has fighter carriers where players are the actual fighter pilots…ala BSG.
Leave it to the creator of Wing Commander and Privateer (still two of my fondest gaming memories) to come up with this. Just amazing. AND, if I don’t like how things go, I can start my own RP focused server? *drools and passes out* I can’t wait to play this game.
I want to play a Chris Roberts game, not a community concensus game. The system sounds fair and it’s definately complicated enough to go with the complexity of the rest of the game
WOW! This really is new! I like it. Go Chris!
Seriously, I love everything that I just read. It is EXACTLY what I have wanted out of a game – even a single player game, for as long as I can remember. Further proof that I TRUST CHRIS ROBERTS is a worthy statement.
might i suggest opening a contract with the Hyperion Corporation and utilizing their Digistruct (Borderlands!) technology for re-spawning players and their equipment… attach whatever resource or monetary penalty you see fit for this service, and allow a player to CHOOSE to see said physical degradation on their character and/or equipment. Perhaps this type of respawn can be tiered in terms of quality: ie. Premium reconstruction will cost more but either have limited or no ill effects towards the player and equipment. Lesser quality technology could either be free with a heavy penalty or cost far less and have a higher chance of something not being put back together quite right
Or, if you can’t pay the premium service but you can’t bare to suffer potential loss or change to your character then maybe there could be a time penalty associated to how long before you can continue playing that character again.
I think what you’ve thought up is fine on paper but won’t be fun to play if it’s going to be a lot of trouble to maintain a character’s existence for the duration I decide to play the game for.
Part of an RPG experience for me is attaching personality and style of gameplay to a character’s name. If that character name is going to eventually die, that’s going to hurt my desire to play. I become very attached to characters that I make, and I really would not be happy if I would eventually lose it due to game mechanics.
You proclaim a persistent universe. Death is anathema to persistence in this case. Please let us continue to have our characters persist if we want them to. My online characters should only “die” when I decide to stop playing the game.
I am an avid Eve player and I think this will be a good mechanic.
But it doesn’t hurt enough. Why not give us the option to not only enhance our ships – but our bodies as well? Think reflex booster, or CyberEye. Those (pricey!) advantages would be lost upon permadeath…
This message is for Mal. Your post was ill-informed and does not speak for players who want a game that breaks the mold. We also want a fun game but not the same old re-hash. Casual gamer or not this game is not meant to be just a pleasant distraction when you come home from work. This is going to be an ambitious & immersive gaming experience. Plain fact is instant respawns breaks immersion as it is the most unrealistic gaming characteristic. It also leads to sloppy playing, unrealistic behavior and encourages griefing. Developing a sense of self preservation is key to developing a the feeling of living out there in the galaxy. Dogfights MAY occur less frequently however they will be much more exciting because the outcome actually matters. Death should not just be a minor financial inconvenience. CR understand that the game cannot only be geared to hardcore gamers which is why he is providing multiple lives before final expiration. He is also allowing players to keep their ships after death which is what really matters in the game and doing it in a way that continues the flow of the story.
I can tell that your casual interest in this game also extends to its development because you would have read that there WILL be a way for casual gamers to turn off PVP in UEE controlled areas and there IS going to be areas where its mandatory. You can have easy dogfights with weak NPCs to your heart’s content. We won’t be floating in space after ejection for an extended period of time, that’s obvious, and getting rescued, “arrested” or sold off to slavery is an essential dynamic for various occupations in the game and the story lore. The death if your character is really at most a symbolic defeat. Your heir will be able to keep the same face, name, and ship. I don’t think that’s “punishing” the player.
Well, actually I didn’t read all the developer articles, so I might have missed the one stating that PvP can be turned off in UEE controlled sectors. But if SC already intends to implement what I suggested without proper knowledge … that’s fine with me.
Concerning your argument about SC being geared towards hardcore gamers: Somehow your arguments seem to contradict themselves. You keep saying that SC is for hardcore players, but then you’re pointing to the fact that death is only symbolic and you don’t loose face, name, ship (Squadron 42 status, whatever assets …). So while the number of health points per life is limited, the numbers of lives is be unlimited. That doesn’t sound especially hard core to me.
I simply wonder if all this life-death-and-cheating-death-concept really helps the gameplay. Mr. Roberts already said that he expects the system will need a lot of balancing—a.k.a. needs a lot of developer time.
Does this add to the game’s experience or should he rather put this time into getting the flight mechanics tuned right? Being an old FlightSim guy, I can state that *believable* flight mechanics add much more to the immersion than some fancy crash/death sequences. As a final word, I don’t remember the death sequence of X-Wing or Tie Fighter. But these games created immersion because their core game mechanics – being a fun spaceflight “sim” – was so well implemented.
Seems great in general! A few small hangups for me…
1) Getting scars only on death seems to be very limited. I think it would make sense if you could get small scars or burns or such just from being taken down to very low health or taking a bad hit or such.
2) I am also worried that the “legendary feats” bit will only really work for the players who spend a lot of time in the game, the veterans on the top. This would make sense, sure, but it’s still no fun for newer players. Is there some way for people who don’t play 8 hours a day, every day, from launch, to get their names in the annals of history?
Also, can I be a royal bastard and sell captured players as slaves? I think you could do that in Privateer!
I have a question about disconnect..
What happens if you disconnect AFTER ejecting but BEFORE pickup/rescue/podkill?
If you disconnect while in pod, I hope the game doesn’t assume safe rescue.
If the battle rages on around your pod and you get disconnected, will you float until the battle is over or even get killed while you are offline?
ATTENTION ALL INSTANT RESPAWN BABIES:
The Game will have a SIMULATOR!
If you want to trade, explore, bounty hunt, steal cargo, transport cargo, be a pirate – All of these with associated risks – Play the Game.
= OR.. =
If you want to dog fight, practice, shoot your friends, shoot your enemy – With none of the risks – Play the Simulator.
Its a computer game – the Sim cockpit can be made to look EXACTLY like the game.
If it was a “bar fight” simulator where you get punched in the face, then sure, its never going to feel like the real thing – But its a Game, where the game inside the game will be EXACTLY like the game – GENIUS!!!
Having said all that – How cool would it be if you could choose to play a retro version, or an arcade style simulator where your high detailed, 100,000 faced character hops inside a Sim and his cockpit has the the graphics of WC3/4 or Privateer
Wow, this topic got a lot of people chirping. I say “Good luck Chris and CIG, this is a fine line and will be amazing if pulled off!”
Yeah. I do like the way we can die and have next or kin if we so choose it to take over. Next question will be or hopefully be. How much can we customize our space suits. Will we be able to have cat ears and tails? =^.^= I want doggy ears the non- floppy kind and a bushie tail. =^.^= I’m sure someone in the fuure is crazy enough to do just that. =^.^=
I love it! It’s exactly the direction I hoped the game was going to take. The only difference I had was on the transferred reputation. I was thinking that reputation would be totally reset or cut dramatically with the a bonus for reclaiming the reputation. It sort of a way for the beneficiary to prove them self if they want to follow in their benefactors foot steps or go in a totally different direction. I think the bonus should be as significant as the reputation loss, but as with all things balance is important.
Anyhow keep up the good work! =D
i was thinking about this too, but that would mean that anyone can attack everybody without real penalty, he just dies half dozen times and can play normally while get bored and then grief again.
maybe there should be system that you loose your good reputation but not thr bad one, so criminal kids will be punished after parents death, doesnt make much sense from logical point of view but if we consider them as same characters then all bad things you done must remain, otherwise i just die and all is forgiven.
there is one more possibility: when you die you must pay for ALL your crimes, so new character goes to jail or pays in cash and this is mandatory before you can start new life.
i’m wondering about something if someone capture a player’s ejection pod, (either to sell as a slave, or to give to the authorities, or eventually bring him back to safety
will you have to choose which one applies to the pod you captured as soon as you beam it ?
that way, the player who’s pod had been destroyed can spawn back at his savepoint directly (after paying a ransom/bribery etc), (you just need a mechanic which will prevent those two players from seeing each other until the ejection pod has been transfered to the authorities / slavers etc. (maybe by preventing them to be in the same instance of a zone while one has the pod of the other in his hold)
it would prevent too much ‘camping’ this way, and not prevent the captured players to wait until the pod has been delivered.
I love this sort of death system. Basing your account around a ‘family’ or other similar construct is an awesome concept that too few games explore.
(Sword of the New World is the only one I can think of from the top of my head, and that is a somewhat generic korean F2P.)
Don’t repeat the mistake that EVE made with the first implementation of their bounty system, though. It was virtually worthless until it was fixed recently. Do not pay out an entire bounty to one hunter in a chunk for one shot. With the several-lives system you’re going for, you’d be walking a very fine balance there. If a bounty is low, it is not worth going after someone for. If it is high, he can let a friend cap him in the head and then split the bounty afterwards.
What EVE did with their recent change is adjust the payout based on damage caused. So destroying the fully decked out Stella of a guy with a bounty might net a larger payout than doing the same to his stock Aurora, or similar. Balanced in such a way that getting someone to kill you to cash in on the bounty is just never a valid option.
The harder part is to get that to make sense in-fiction. In EVE, the new system -makes sense- because the way to punish people that are effectively immortal is not to kill them, but to inflict tangible damage to their assets. I can’t think of a suitable in-fiction rationalization to use a similar mechanic for SC. But I think all-in-one payouts, especially for player placed bounties, are too easy to abuse mechanically.
Everything I read about this game gets me more and more excited about it, this death system included. The only question which remains now is where do I get a time machine so I can jump ahead in time and play the greatest game ever conceived right away?
I trust Chris Roberts.
But I can still imagine griefers using throw-away ALTs to collect the UEE bounty on their own head.
What makes you think you -can- make alts? Maybe you can only have one character. Besides, I think you need to do some of the single-player campaign bit for a character before you can go out in the open, so even throw-aways would take effort.
Right now I hate the idea as layed out until I get more details like on what the expected average life expectancy is, are all sectors capable of having the player targeted, will npcs target the player, will deaths playing system 42 impact the number of lives in the mmo. I’m sorry to say it I’ve very much everything about this game so far but I can promise you I will never think of my representative of myself as being my ship.
A big example of why I’m not liking the idea is PVP, I’m not a big PVPer but I do enjoy doing it from time to time, and with the death system in place I will never PVP in this game and I doubt I will be the only one. That unless the rewards get to the point that they out weight the risks I just don’t see a lot of people that are part time PVPers being willing.
I also enjoy RP to a degree and giving myself a back-story, one that continues to evolve as I’m playing, and if I’m really honest if I am forced to retire my first character sooner then a year of normal playing I’m going to be pissed. With the death system in place I just see myself playing far to conservative to truly enjoy the game for the sole fact that the overbearing risk of death I will more often then not watch from the sidelines of wars, pvping, and exploring for the simple fact that I will want my character to live as long as humanly possible.
Also marriage I have friends I’ve played with before that are married and enjoy having their characters married in game and with the current system that would really be kind of hard to have that continue after the first generation.
I do like the idea of getting battle wounds and would enjoy showing them of and talking about how I got them. I can easily see my character having a cybernetic leg and getting every opportunity to talk about how I got it defending my ship from pirates, and that when I have to start over will miss all the battle scars and achievements I got because it wouldn’t matter that my ship was there that was the past character I had.
I would totally be ok with a voluntary system where when I’m ready do go down a different life path that I do so with a new character.
I think there are valid concerns here. Realism is great to an extent, but I also game for escapism from the concerns of real life. I want to be able to take risks I wouldn’t take in real life without being penalized to a degree that the fun is sacrificed. This is a delicate game balancing issue to which CR is clearly sensitive. Due to griefing something needs to be done. If we don’t like it and if we don’t like PVP in general, we can always play on a private server. Hopefully the private servers will still support events like falling governments and wars so that fans of a single player experience can still have it all (or at least a lot of it).
Well I am looking forward to the game still but this system as it is now ensures I’m going to stay in SP or on private servers. Also it does not seem that they understand who griefers are.
I don’t believe I’ve even been in love with a game before, but this might just do it.
Looking SO forward to trying to doge death forever, and then going through the grief when I finally do!
So mean, but so sweet too. These emotions are what drive humanity!
I think the stress of permadeath is a great addition to gaming. I noticed it first on the zombie FPS game DAYZ and Minecraft. There, when you got shot you started to bleed and if you didnt get a bandage or transfusion you sooner or later died…permanently… loosing everthing. Your new spawned character could then run and loot your previous characters dead body unless some else beat you to it.
The coolest thing I saw with this very stressful game mechanic on DayZ was that one noobie player was so tired of dying he let himself become the personal slave of a small group of players, acting as a portable storage mule or runner, in return for staying alive and possibly learning something.
Just thought of something…. lets form a “Chris Roberts Assasinations guild”.
Ho-ly-shit.
This is a rather amazing. I love it.
Awesome stuff. This is why SC is a simulation. Doesnt get much more sim than death!
I played EVE Online – a long time ago but i stop playing this becourse i lost my ship and my tech2 systems – ok u say i am stupid to fly in a dangerous star system, but i do it with some other people – but after some missions everybody goes his way and i had to go back allone and die after a jump gate…
…
that was very frustrating becourse u can´t get 100% insurance 4 your ship and even worse NO insurance 4 the systems you are used.
…
That was the last time i played that game
…
i dont think thats a good idea that you can loose everything…
may be a realylong time u can´t use the ship und upgrades (z.B. Reparing time)
There are some valid concerns and advice as to how griefers can cheat the system and keep on griefing yet when I think about all these ways it seems CR has already thought about it and has put safeguards.
Griefer # 1/ Blitz Griefer: He spends money on a powerful ship and upgrades. He waits in Noob areas such as UEE controlled space, probably in orbit around planets or lying in wait at jump points then proceeds to pounce on noobs for sport. With every noob ship he takes down his wanted meter goes up (just like GTA series), His wanted level goes up quicker if he kills ejected pilots until he finally has a swarm of UEE NPCs and Bounty Hunters take him out. Now when he re-spawns and re-enters UEE space he automatically has the highest wanted level and the swarm appears before he can grief. The griefer is like a virus, the first time out is always the worst because the auto-immune system has to work itself up but once the immune system has got the virus’s number it responds quickly and efficiently. The insurance is an added counter measure. CR already said if you lose your ship in quick succession, the insurance company will increase the delay in providing new ship as you go. Lifetime insurance also doesn’t cover upgrades & insurance companies won’t cover plaers with high wanted levels. In a realtively short time this type of griefer will get tired of getting swarmed and losing creds before he can even grief and call it quits.
Griefer # 2/ Career Griefer: This Griefer approaches it as he would a job…one that gives him satisfaction. This griefer does it to feel better about himself, get some target practice, & collect salvage. High end career griefers even board and steal ships. These griefers/pirates will be more a problem then Blitz Griefers asas their wanted level will increase only gradually and he can offset financial loss inherent in griefing by profits from piracy. However, this Griefer will need to live out in the fringe systems away from UEE space and the authorities (i.e. Cathcart) Yet even this type of griefer will be buffered as eventually his wanted level will increase past the point where he can travel to heavily patrolled space (Noob space) safely. He will basically have to run gauntlet to get to noob space and a gauntlet to get out which will tip the financial balance he had to the negative and it use up his lives and reach perma death relatively quickly. Some might say that he just gets a new heir character with the same ship and keeps griefing but lets not forget that his wanted level has decreased only slightly with the new character so he is still going to encounter the UEE swarms from the start of the new character. Becaue of that he’s going to opt to remain out in the fringe of space where noobs do not tread (or at least shouldn’t if they know what’s good for them). He not even safe there! Because his high wanted levels make for high bounties. Once relegated to the fringe he won’t be a griefer anymore because out there he’s facing players who know how to defend themselves and will be on the defensive from rival pirates and bounty hunters out to get him.
Griefer # 3/ Loophole Griefers: This type of Griefer may be either Blitz or Practical but the difference is he is actively trying to find system loopholes to keep on griefing. If CR lets us have more than one character on one account then the 1st character makes the 2nd his heir then goes on tear. He then has the second character kill the first in order to collect the fat bounty and the ship. Sounds good on paper but IF we have multiple characters and one is another’s heir he also inherits the wanted level so griefing is hindered from the srat of the 2nd character. If he is not the heir and only collects the bounty he may just use that and real money to buy a new ship and starts griefing with a clean slate, right? A simple safeguard would be to have the system disallow bounties collected by characters on the same account. The griefer can still create another account but that would mean buying another game in order to create an account. Unless he’s a rich dude with no life I don’t think that is going to happen often enough to be a real problem. Again he will only be able to successfully grief for a short period of time before the immune system kicks in. I think CR’s plan against griefing is incredibly solid.
Brilliant System. I believe in Chris Roberts.
Wow, this system actually sounds very promising and exciting.
@DarkDissent
Since the article states that the beneficiary can’t be another player character I would assume that this character won’t be created until the other one is dead.
I do hope we are allowed to create more than one character at the same time though, that are independent of each other.
This just gave me an idea how a dogfight between opponents or friends even could be fought, without actual need for a simulator:
You declare it a “sim fight” and go for the first disabled ship with special weapons; in those, shields are fought down like in a real battle, bu after this computers simply determine the damage caused by hits on the hull and systems, turn off damaged systems accordingly, down to the point where the ship comes to a grinding halt and is marked “destroyed” and the fight is over.
After this the computer reboots all systems, charges shields again and you’re good to go.
No need to create simulators for dogfights; you can use your actual in-game ship; no need for a sim in a sim.
Love it.
2 issues which I see coming up.
1. It says that your character will only be rescued/respawn once you are a safe distance from any enemies… Does that mean that a group of players upon killing another group could just sit beside your corpse/escape pod and keep you from respawning. They don’t actually kill you so they don’t get a bounty, they just drive you up the wall.
2. If you are sold into slavery or handed over into a prison, you are going to be stuck doing mediocre tasks for a long time (depending on how much you need to earn/ repay for crimes). Which will be fun once and a while, but really after the pirates or law enforcement have grabbed you for the umpteenth time, you’re going to wish there was a suicide button so you could just start your new character instead. I mean I like the idea of perma-death but I plan on running with a group of friends and I want to be able to play with them, not sit in slavery and try to work my way free.
This is awesome. Every time I read new information about this game it only increases my excitement for it. Love it, can’t wait to play it.
I am willing to keep an open mind about this perma-death system, though I am skeptical it will survive contact with actual players. Tabletop RPGs have the benefits of a GM and face-to-face contact between players to curb assholish behavior.
That’s kind of my thoughts, too. Also, I hope the options to “repair” deaths aren’t too draconian. I tend to get a bit involved in characters that I like, and given the way people are overly aggressive in online games, I feel that life expectancy might be a bit too low if they aren’t.
This death mechanic creates an interesting situation in that a dog fight with multiple enemies you could take out one of them. After their ship blows up and the enemy pilot ejects then you could tractor the enemy pilot onto your ship. Wouldn’t that mean that if the other enemy fighters destroy your ship they’d be taking their friends life as well as the ejected pilot is now your cargo?
I’m Skeptical that if you “capture” an enemy pilot they’d actually enter your ship. It would probably just give the one doing the capturing the option to sell them or something. Otherwise the captured player would be at the mercy of their imprisoner until they could be bothered to drop you off somewhere. Or what if they decided to keep you trapped on their ship and never let you go.
Bottom line, sitting around in a holding cell for hours isn’t fun gameplay, so I’m thinking it won’t happen.
i got to say, perma death kinda bugs me in some games but here it doesn’t sound too bad and kinda balances the game play a little and also a fun idea for role players. the one thing that bugs me is if aging would be played into this. i hate to say it but a character aging sounds a bit over kill but for the galaxy to change and time progressing sounds fine. to see empires rise and fall, leaders, commanders and other npc’s dieing in battle to be replaced by their successor is all fine and dandy. but if i character was to die, it be in a blaze of glory, not from old age (even if a old spacer kicking a younger pilot’s ass does sound fun)
How does character naming work in this system? Can my next of kin have the same name as my original character? Does it have to be a new name? Is it my choice?
I’m so looking forward to this game! =D
Seems pretty thorough. As much as I’d hate to have my character actually die, I think it will add to the gameplay. I also like the inclusion of replacement body parts. It’d be interesting to see how politics, influence, and wealth apply here.
An average person with moderate funds: [Robotic Arm]
A wealthy businessman with a small fortune: [Real Human Limb]
Maybe this opens up for potential growth on the Black Market? Human organs… People will pay top dollar for a replacement heart. Perhaps we can have duplicate organs or an advanced defibrillator-type machine incorporated into our suit to revive us.
Additionally, I’d love to see escape craft on the bigger ships. Why risk floating in the void when you can install a life-boat?
Doesn’t need to be from the black market, I imagine they can clone you some organs, it just costs more and probably has a bit more risks than cool cyborg arms.
Actually come to think of it… I wonder if you’ll be able to buy cybernetics and such -without- almost dying first?
That was a great, informative read. Interesting you mentioning Mass Effect and Demon’s Souls: Incidentally I’m a fan of both game series. So I for one certainly don’t mind CIG taking inspiration from those in any way. And by the look of those helmets… Well, I like what I see.
Frankly it’s a pleasure and inspiration just being part of this journey. And, as others have said, it’s something to believe in. Unfortunately I’ve never had the pleasure of playing any of the previous games you’ve designed. But I’m sure we all agree that, _quality_ is something to believe in.
Too many games being dumbed down these days. Too many compromises being made. It’s been a slow, downward spiral of sorts, and change is needed.
This is it. Looking forward to playing true work of passion.
No pressure btw.
So can we reserve a Name, and have it the Family Name for in the game, so the Family name is our unique one.
Just wanted to add my thumbs up – I LOVE this mechanic and think it’ll be amazing! <3 Awesome ideas here, and my much-abused suspension of disbelief loves you too.
So many others have said it, but hey, one more voice is never a bad thing: the whole way this is being done, this awesome dream that you guys are working to realise with our backing, is absolutely brilliant. I feel more confident already that this is going to be incredible than I ever have looking at a game already out and on the shelf, and I get to see just how much you all care, to exult at the successes and worry about the snags, and even to help just a little. Thanks for letting us all be part of this!
You’ve put a lot of thought into this, and you have some small
experience in the genre to get it right. ^_^
I think this works, its very balanced. No game survives first
contact with the players of course so I expect it’ll be modified
but for now I give it thumbs up.
Still digesting the details, but seems solid so far. You have to stay close to your vision–you can’t be all things for all players, especially with the variety of gamers and gameplay we see.
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out during the testing and balancing phases. CR’s vision and concepts could Spawn the next gen of persistent universe gaming.
“My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, My Brother, My Uncle, My Grandad, My Cousin, My Brother in Law once removed, My Hampster, My Lawyer, My Boss, My Little Space Pet that had no name. Prepare to die!”)
Αnd I ѕhould and” puncture” mеаning, for sοme
ρatiеnts, KIRO-TV repοrted. So іt is an excellent raspbeггy κetoneѕ ԁiet ρіlls, instead
οf fooԁѕ you love from my diet.
6 bіllion are overωеіght іn men аnd womеn
Νewly enhanced and your tummу ωith youг doсtοr prеѕcribed medісatіon is propеrly chеwed in
your brain that enough. Anԁ many pеοple
ԁon’t know if the medication but it makes you hungry.
my homepage: 3raspberryketonemonster.com
This sounds fucking amazing.
I need to play this.
Having never played Star Wars (didn’t like the movies that much) I link that depicted “funeral scene” rather to a french movie. Don’t know which one was first, the movie or the game.. however, the similarity is striking.
The name of the movie is “Maitres du temps” (“Herrscher der Zeit” in german), and it’s really a wicked piece. Since it’s an animated movie it was shown in the kids programme in the 80′s – but it does really mess you up when you’re a kid
However, it’s worth watching (don’t let your underage kids see it unless you want them develop a liking for LSD to relive that experience). I know it’s hard to come by, it can be sometimes bought used on DVD on Amazon.fr (sometimes it’s out of stock) and I think I saw the french version once on youtube. Unfortunately I don’t know if there is an english dubbed version out there.. but on the DVD there should be subs.
When I started reading this, I was aghast, being so spoiled by quick-save and quick-load if things don’t go my way, and being accustomed to having godlike immortal characters in all my games.
By the time I got to the end, I was overjoyed that a game designer has this much vision and audacity. I am HUGELY excited for this game, and I think it will have a profound impact on PC games for along time to come.
Well, it is safe to say that I am all in on this idea. Those who live life in the fast lane could be quickly and greatly rewarded, or quickly killed. Those who tread cautiously could be slowly and greatly rewarded, or not quickly killed. They say slow is smooth and smooth is fast, so, it looks like I will be playing it slow…
Anyone who has done real pen-and-paper RPGs knows that it just wouldn’t be the same if your character couldn’t die. No risk = No adventure.
So There is a lot of stuff here to read but I just wanted to add my 2 cents on the bounty system. Basically I think the bounty system should work similar to Eves’ where you get some cash for killing a person with a bounty and the amount that you get is based on the total of the players lost assets. You get a percent of the total lost assets up to the amount of the bounty. So if you have a big bounty, then people can effectively grief you until the bounty is used up(total assets lost reaches the amount of bounty), with out penalty.
Also interesting spin on death. I like it Chris
Over all, this is great. I just have a couple of features I hope are present…
1. First of all, I hope that in the event a player takes a visual “death” penalty, there will be multiple options to repair scars and basically have access to “pretty” bio-mechanical replacement body parts. In general, I’m hoping that even without death there will be plenty of “plastic-surgery” options to change one’s appearance and even biotech enhancements – ie Traveling to a certain highly guarded research station and paying a ton of money will allow me to upgrade my character with top of the line ocular implants that not only interface with ship and suit “targeting computers” and make for better analysis and accuracy, but are visually indistinguishable from standard human eyes…with the exception of player-controlled ability to switch one’s eye color at will and even display iris colors that are not natively present in organic human eyes if I so choose.
While I generally feel that all these changes enhance roleplaying experience, I just want to be sure that I’m not going to be stuck with an avatar I designed to be handsome now stuck with a bunch of irremovable ugly scars or metal limbs as a death penalty. It is one thing to say… end up with scars and old visually metal robotic limbs if I go through a death event with very little money and no insurance, waking up on a medbay on a prison planet or other world without supplies of the latest medical technology (or, in the hands of those who won’t dole it out without tons of credits). However, once I can retrieve my fortune from UEE space etc… I want to be able to have my scars faded/removed, and have a bio-mechanical visually-identical limb installed instead. Without this, I fear the game will end up with the same issues as the “Fable” series where players were stuck with irremovable scars and/or aging as penalties for death or other elements. I don’t mind it costing more than the bargain basement peg-legs, and hell I may like to have some of those badass/monstrous appearances available as well for certain characters (at least temporarily – ie “I shall not have this scar over my eye removed until I kill the man who gave it to me!” ), but I just want to make sure that players won’t be forced into losing their attractive, human appearance without a way to regain it.
2. I’m interested in learning more about boarding (which, is one of the elements of the game I’m most excited about. I can’t wait to breach an airlock FPS-style and take a ship to add to my fleet while ransoming the crew etc..) and hope that there will be mechanics to make it less dangerous. For instance, besides wearing better boarding suits etc… to protect against injury, how about mechanics for both attackers and defenders to be “rescued”. While I agree it should be easier for the defenders etc… I’d still like to see those wounded while assaulting to have a decent change to fall back and patch themselves up to survive. This made better by say…bringing a PC or NPC with medical skills on your assault who will perform triage and try to carry you back to your craft for medical attention if necessary. Of course, if you’re attacking solo, you can try to patch yourself up… but it may not be as successful etc. I can see all sorts of great scenes involved in boarding an ship-to-ship combat (ie. Depressurizing certain sections of the ship to blow enemies out, destruction of artificial gravity generators, and lots lots more). I really hope there will be some “PvE” boarding operations as well that have a lower chance of “rejuvination-death” and “permadeath” events, so players can have fun with the boarding mechanics without quite as much danger. Ultimately, I hope they pervade all parts of the gameworld, but I expect that say… a Squadron 42 mission where you have to help disable a capital ship and then board it in an extensive combat operation etc… will be much less dangerous than an “open world” assault on a capital ship controlled by NPCs, which will be less dangerous than say.. a ton of your friends boarding a pirate-controlled station in the hopes of bringing a prominent (player) outlaw to justice – but you’ll have to take down their entourage first!
*applauds”
very good system, as far as i keep all my assets and ships after “death” im all in, thinking twice before entering boarding or attacking others is good thing, but the best part: YOU always can proove yourself, becouse there wont be old players and new players, you will have some time to live and you can make your character a hero, even if he dies.
i just wish killed NPC are not replaced with someone, make a system where highest ranking survivor takes place, like if there are pirate band and you kill the leader and there are any survivors from this band just make best of them new leader and drop in some new “faces”, if there are NO survivors no need to create unexistant one, just create new “problem” somewhere else and create it there, otherwise it will be still same boss all over again just with different name, those bosses must be rare and challenging, also very different, pirates, aliens, riots, military conflicts etc., so if there are true heroes they should search for those and not justgo and kill pirate name1 in system name1, then pirate name2 in system name1 etc.
I think that this system only proves the real genius of Chris Roberts. The Boss NPC is in, for all practical matters, an instance. Instances are not just thrown together in a few minutes. If when the Boss is killed and there is nothing more, that would mean that the “instance” is dead too. All the Dev work is dead as well. The winner of the battle will have a unique award for his/her legacy and then someone else has a chance for theirs. Would be no different than taking out Al Capone only to have Frank Nitti to deal with. A Boss NPC will undoubtedly be part of a larger organization and there is no way you could wipe them all out on your own, at least not in one battle. Everyone in Warcraft can say they killed Hogger, but only you can say you took out Al Capone! If you want to just keep going back to that area to take out the next in line, well, you are just to miss out on the rest of what is going on in the galaxy
Interesting news. Nice, everything which I suppose to get in a space combat game…
Thank you RSI.
I love how much thought they’ve put into this, this games been over 10 years in the making, on a god-like pc this is certain to blow everything else out of the water/
I would of liked if there was a certain amount of player abilities/skills.
Not as much as Eve, but something like, Strength, so that the efficiency of how well you can use heavy armour, increases slightly.
Perfect. Every word. Stick to your vision Chris – that’s what we’re paying for. We trust you.
This is awesome. I really like this plan.
I like this system, especially the anti-griefing elements. I was wondering how “Dakhath”-type players would be dealt with. I must admit some guilty pleasure of shooting ejected pilots in other flight games – especially the old Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe – but since this is an open universe where other players are concerned, I’m glad there’s a mechanism in place to prevent griefers from just offing newbies left and right. In fact, that there will be bounties placed on such griefers makes me even more happy, because I absolutely love the concept of being able to hunt down and punish bad players and be rewarded for it. Once again, great ideas Chris.
Griefers beware. Phoenix will be hunting you.
That’s all well and good, but there’s plenty of players out there like me who don’t give two squirts about all these perceived digital achievements. Some of us play games to relax, unwind, and in general just get away from real life for an hour or two while enjoying some story or scenery or action. I save the effort/energy required for ‘achievements’ for the real world, where there are real rewards for them. Granted, that’s just my opinion, it’s just as in/valid as anyone else’s about anything.
In any case, I’m glad ill be able to run my own server and enjoy all I care to enjoy without pesky humans trampling all over my ‘lawn’ if the live side turns out to be more of a hassle than an enjoyment.
I like how the death system sounds very much. Anyone know how successful were previous implementations in games with similar (i.e. heritage) systems?
What I am not instantly convinced about it the crime system (PK de-motivation). It looks to me a lot like the PK systems of Ultima Online (which worked only for a few weeks after start, until the “good” players lost interest or went “bad”) or EVE Online (which never worked at all and was gamed by players for years). I do not claim that it is a bad idea, I would just like to understand what the expected player behavior is that would make this PK system more successful than similar systems in the past, which did not work?
Notably:
> Attempting to grief new players will probably hasten your character’s death
I wonder: When has this ever distracted a griefer? In EVE Online, it is common to create (paid) accounts just for high security space griefing, recycling the pilots as soon as they can no longer travel high security space reliably. Griefers usually have zero connection to their created characters, they are after the feeling of having successfully ruined someone’s day.
The “Goons” are a hugely successful clan made from somethingawful.com users; they are a huge power in EVE Online, dedicated to griefing. You bet that some of them will try Star Citizen, and if they find the tears they are after easy to achieve, it will be interesting to watch what happens.
EVE Online is a totally different game with totally different rules. The way the encounter system will work in Star Citizen is totally different. It may be hard for 15 or 20 people to gang up and try to hammer on one lone newbie because that newbie won’t be playing in a void. There may be some pretty tough capital ships floating around, and in more secure space areas it would be pretty hard to grief someone when that capital ship could launch 40 heavy fighters that would outclass the griefers. There will be more than PvP to worry about. You’ll have busy space lanes with AI ships all over. Flying out into more dangerous space, again, you’ll still have the game’s encounter mechanic to deal with. If 100 people try to control the same area of space at once, the game will know what’s going on and they might run up against an AI-controlled UEE strike fleet jumping in. I can see a lot of creative ways Chris can deal with attempts at griefing.
One other area griefers in EVE won’t be able to translate into Star Citizen is the fact that Star Citizen is not a point and click game. Actual flight skill will be required. That “newbie” they’re trying to target might be an ace veteran pilot with hidden upgrades to his ship, and they might end up getting their clocks cleaned. Griefers in every game I’ve seen rely on exploits, and I’m certain Chris and his team will be fixing those “on-the-fly” – pun intended.
Which brings me to this concern of griefing – character creation. Remember, Star Citizen is about the ships, not the avatar. If a player does not take the time and effort to play legit and upgrade his ship, he’s going to be flying weaksauce stuff in secure space, or weaksauce stuff in pirate space. It’s hard to grief in a ship that has no teeth. Abandoning an account and creating a new one means you’ll be stuck with weaksauce again. Keeping the account and making your ship better means bad behavior is going to get you marked for termination, and bounty hunters plus UEE and possibly rival pirate clans or aliens will be after you. Sure, it may not eliminate all griefing, but it’s going to make it harder. Griefers don’t want to invest any effort, they want the cheap win. Well, it’s like crime in real life. Sure, you’ll get away with it for a little while, but the worse you behave or the more heinous the crime, the more attention you bring to yourself, and more heat will be on your back as a result.
The one area I could see being an issue with griefing is straw players, which are clan members that would build up resources and “give” more powerful ships or creds to buy them to fellow clan members, allowing them to build up a griefing fleet. That could get around the account creation issue, but there’s the whole insurance issue, and, like in the real world, if you’re laundering money for crooks, you’re a crook too. That means the player with the time and money invested to build up resources will get marked as a high-profile target – with large rewards. That player stands to lose a LOT if and when someone takes him down, and when that happens it will bust the supply chain for the griefers and they’ll have to start over.
That’s just what I can deduce from what Chris has already stated about the game mechanics. This doesn’t even touch what they might do behind the scenes to counter-act griefing. Chris has an active interest in keeping the community happy, and this is not going to be a game that’s released into the wild and then just left alone for people to do whatever. It’s going to be changing and evolving, with Chris watching over it every step of the way. If something becomes a problem they will deal with it.
Given the choice, I would bet on Chris’s genius over the SA Goons any day.
Having played ALL of your games in the past, from WC, to Armada, to Freelancer… I have to say; reading this nearly brought me to tears.
From Princess Bride references (which you are more entitled to than most!)..to the acceptance that not all of us are fond of the ‘reset’ button.
…I couldn’t be more pleased to be a participant in this universe.
Thank you SO much Chris.
Jack Burton ( ME! )
So much win :3 I have never been more excited about a game in my life.
I think this sounds like a fantastic idea. I love that death with actually have consequences. Great job again guys!!!
DEAR ROBERTS
First of all ! Thx for you job, i love what you do, as a 37 French old man !
I would like to talk about the bounty system.
As you know, most of the pirate with a bounty will ask their friends to kill them so they can share the money.
So here is the deal :
I am the nice Rear Admiral Lordarius and the ugly Roberts Pirate kills me.
I am angry and i use my money to “give” a 50000 bounty to Roberts.
But….
When Roberts dies the bounty is also removed from the Roberts’ account.
After a while, one day, the ugly Roberts bankrupts …
What’s next ?
–> The ugly pirate is not allowed to drive a spaceship as a captain anymore until he can have new fresh cash.
In order to win cash he has to work and he has to sell his skills… as a gunner for exemple.
In this way we still have a “pool” of skilled gunners for multiplayer ships !
And unskilled pirates … can be punished sometimes and pay they dept to the society.
Of course the Roberts ugly pirate can also ask money from pirates-friends… or he can work for them !
It’s ok. I’ll try something new.
I love the idea. I miss the satisfaction, too that you have achieved something in a Computer Game.
My Top 3 favourite dying experience in computer gaming:
3. Bubble Bobble (dying at Level 98 is a pain in the ass)
2. Playing Resident Evil on PLaystation 1 without Storage Card (becasue we just didn’t had one) in the night. (You will really be scared by every Zombie, I promise!!)
1. Rick Dangerous: Ahhhh, that guy should never come up my way. I lost so many nerves (and maybe years to live) with this game.
Of all the articles I’ve read, this one is my personal favorite here! The death system is so well-thought-out here, and all the magnitudes in risks are covered from practice to the gritty fringe of existence!
I like what I have been reading so far, so detailed. I am looking forward to this game. Is it coming to alpha/beta? I am looking to find how to be part of this searching and reading to find instructions. I will give up EOL for this!
While I was reading this, I was thinking if I can maintain a career in space retrieving ejected players in space.
How close is this to being live! This is awesome.
18 months… we can hope for some ‘alpha’ testing in 6 months… Squadron 42 in 12 months… live game Christmas 2014.
Q. How many persistent characters will be allowed? Hopefully only one. Ex, current game PS2 there are folks who are constantly swapping sides (for SC…going from fighter to pirate) in a few seconds depending on a whim that can have huge effects on game balance and any combat.